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Ryan, you're welcome! Looking forward to more recordings. smile


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Here are 2 more excellent examples of these 2 temperaments, Et and EBVT III. Again, this is a "blind" test, same parameters as above. Feel free to post what you think is the correct temperament. Headphones are a plus! smile


1. "Il Postino" Temperament test No.1 http://www.box.net/shared/sdfbiuoz72

2. "Il Postino Temperament test No.2 http://www.box.net/shared/hr9pk5ifyk


1. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.1 http://www.box.net/shared/b3p9xif7zs

2. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.2 http://www.box.net/shared/ac1z75rlcl






Last edited by grandpianoman; 05/03/10 09:28 PM.
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Hello.

Sorry, this is not about EBVT.

I'm surprised to get to know that there is a Chas version available on Tunelab, section "Load a non-equal temperament - CHAS Theory".

Thank you, GP.

I would be happy to go through all due experimentations and tests on real Chas tunings first. Only then would I be able to release the actual offsets, as to offer the most correct ETD relative figures and a reliable, professional tool.

While I hope this out-of-enthusiasm draft, which I have not heard yet, will not confuse you, I shall ask you to wait for the implementation I'll have been able to approve.

Regards, a.c.


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(I'm confused by the mentions of 1 bit recording. Maybe the term is being used in a different way by Korg--my understanding of sound terminology makes me think that a 1 bit recording would be very bad. We now have 24 and 64 bit recording, which means that we have 24 and 64 levels of amplitude at any given moment. Obviously a 1 bit recording, along these lines, would mean that all of the sounds have the same amplitude, which would be very bad. Is Korg using the term "1 bit" to mean something that the term itself doesn't reveal?)

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Hi Jake,

From my understanding, the "1-bit" technology has improved. Perhaps Patrick can chime in with a good explanation.

Here is some info from the Korg website:
http://www.korg.com/product.aspx?pd=289

Quote
The mobile/tabletop MR-1000 delivers an astonishing 1-bit/5.6 MHz, doubling industry DSD recording quality standards. This new super-rate spec delivers a "true to what you heard" fidelity that will amaze even the most jaded audio enthusiast. Real World Features in a Mobile and DSD Recorder
The MR-1000 can record to multiple formats, allowing you to choose the type that matches your needs. There are three ultra pristine, high definition 1-bit recording formats at your fingertips; DSDIFF, DSF, and WSD* (2.8224 MHz @ 1-bit or 5.6448 MHz @ 1-bit). In addition to the 1-bit recording options, multi-bit PCM formats (BWF or WAV) with resolutions up to 24-bit/192 kHz are also available. The MR-1000 can play back all of these file types and more, with the newly added MP3 playback feature. Various resolutions can be played back, including bit rates from 32 - 320 kbps, with a sampling frequency of either 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz. This gives you the added ability to store and listen to web ready MP3 files right on your stereo recorder. All of these functions make the MR-1000 a truly future proof tool that will be useful for recording all your endeavors in the years to come. It features a 40 GB internal hard drive, offering up to six hours of recording at the highest audio quality (1-bit 5.6448 MHz stereo), or approximately sixty hours at CD quality (16-bit 44.1 kHz).


and

Quote
1-bit Technology Equals Pristine Fidelity
1-bit recording is the latest advancement in audio, and has been adopted for use in the critically acclaimed SACD recording format. It offers a frequency response of DC to 100 kHz and dynamic range of 120 dB. This uncompromising fidelity, low noise floor, extended dynamic range, lifelike imaging and analog quality depth has been praised by top experts. But there are other important advantages to the format of this stereo recorder that are of benefit to all recording professionals, regardless of their tracking platform.


and

Quote
Future Proof Flexibility
Today's state-of-the-art 24-bit converters use high-speed 1-bit conversion to capture audio, using real-time decimation and other processes to present the data in the desired bit depth/sample rate format. The beauty of the MR's bitstream format is that it uses the original 1-bit data, without the need for the other processes. What comes in comes out, with no manipulation needed.

As files are converted and reconverted between various bit depths and sampling rates, there are possibly degrading effects, depending on the sample rate conversion algorithms. The critical issue is that files mixed and mastered in today's state of the art high-resolution audio may be insufficient for tomorrow's formats. Archiving your final mixes and masters in a 1-bit system allows you to bypass these issues, and preserve your music with both the highest fidelity and in a more "universal" format. That data then can more easily be converted at a later date to the bit depth/sample rate format of your choice without compromising the integrity or fidelity of the data. You can even convert to newer formats that will be adopted in the future, be they multi-bit or a further migration to the 1-bit format.



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Thanks. I think we're at the mercy of marketing-speak, here. I have to admit that I still don't understand exactly what they're meaning by 1 bit recording. Unless they mean that their method offers a 1-1 correspondence between the amplitude of each sound source and the recorded amplitude of each sound source. That would create a great sound, but it's not 1 bit resolution. Doesn't resolution, in every field I can think of, grow better with higher numbers?

Korg may have a great sound, here, but reversing the scale and calling something 1 bit resolution when they mean a higher resolution than 24 bit muddies the water, particularly when they use terms like "24 bit" in the same paragraph.

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but that term just stopped me dead in my tracks.

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Not a problem Jake...perhaps Patrick, who has experience with the pro-recording people can chime in here.

I am not so sure it's marketing hype as it is an improvement to 1-bit technology. Here is a white paper on the subject, you have to copy and paste for some reason.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n_bmvaWJmPQJ:www.korg.com/services/products/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf+1-bit+recording+technology&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh1EcgAJ0cmAmQp6UF55_T_wxJdHAwqoeyWrJBA6oQFkwjWo7NJaIKANUBJCZIMZh5rxA3PDO_yDFAqi6HFyLtEwoPyxWbDTtoCCh-28scuZiVKZkocOgZ1I7w2I8jKSRjIMeqG&sig=AHIEtbSwbQqZBz7y7zmHFT52bZ8SFnZ20A


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Thanks for the white paper link. I see what they're arguing, now. But now I want to hear the result of combining a faster sampling rate and low resolution. I wonder how long it will take for soundcard developers to create cards that can use this format.


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Originally Posted by grandpianoman
Here are 2 more excellent examples of these 2 temperaments, Et and EBVT III. Again, this is a "blind" test, same parameters as above. Feel free to post what you think is the correct temperament. Headphones are a plus! smile


1. "Il Postino" Temperament test No.1 http://www.box.net/shared/sdfbiuoz72

2. "Il Postino Temperament test No.2 http://www.box.net/shared/hr9pk5ifyk


1. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.1 http://www.box.net/shared/b3p9xif7zs

2. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.2 http://www.box.net/shared/ac1z75rlcl






Hi All,

My first post here. I've tuned and played harpsichords for decades (you tune it, then you play it, so you have to be able to tune), only recently got into piano tuning.

Here's my guess:

"Il Postino" 1 is ET, 2 is EBVT. 1 sounds brighter, 2 sounds
darker. I prefer 2, but by a small amount.

I can't tell the other piece. I would like to hear something simple like WTC I prelude to see if I can hear the difference.


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Hi,

Seeing I called the challenge, I'd better participate... wink

After listening only on small PC speakers (don't have earphones with me),
and without further explanation or preference, my guesses for now are:

Il Postino: I found this easiest, and hope I'm right: 1 is EBVT, 2 is ET.

OoA: not so easy, but I think 1 is EBVT, 2 is ET.

Jazz piece: most difficult; I really can't say. They clearly sound different,
and I do have a preference for one of them. If pushed for an answer, I'd say:
1 is EBVT, 2 is ET, but I'm not really convinced.

GP, kindly let me know by PM how I fared.


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Hi Jake,

1-bit recording has been marching into obscurity for the last 4-5 years or so. Technically it has many advantages over PCM but also a few disadvantages (and those are hard to overcome).

You can google Super Audio CD (SACD) or Direct Stream Digital (DSD) for more on its short-lived history.

Regards,
Ryan

Last edited by FogAudio; 05/04/10 07:37 AM. Reason: a bit too superfluous
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Hey GP - excellent challenge, and good music!!

Since I am learning to tune both temperaments with respectable consistency - this is a good little test, here is what I perceive while making my way to work on the train.

Glen

Out of Africa
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET

Jazz Temperament
Test 1 ET
Test 2 EBiii

Il Postino
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET


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After some more listening I think I can hear a difference in the other 2 pieces. I think:

Out of Africa 1 is ET, 2 is EBVT.
Jazz piece 1 EBVT, 2 ET.
(Still think Il Postino 1 ET 2 EBVT.)

I don't really hear any tuning, the pieces I think are EBVT sound a little warmer to me.

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Hi everybody, I've been busy doing other vaguely related stuff (arranging and playing grin )

Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by Nick Mauel
Bill,

I do have a question/observation and I wondered if it was accurate, and thought it might benefit others on this thread; so I will post it here rather than send to you as a private message.

In establishing the framework in EBVT III of the 4 rapidly beating intervals, it is obviously very important to nail the 6 beats per second, especially because you are going to match this beat rate to the other intervals.

As I am doing this aurally and getting comfortable with this tuning, there obviously has been some slight variation in my results. It has occured to me that if my beat rate is not quite as fast as the true 6 bps, I will be on the edge of dissonance in some chords. And conversely, if I am slightly more than 6 bps, it will just not sound as special, more like ET. I got this clue from the inverted thirds (relative to ET) sounding either too inverted or not enough, when of course they need to be 'just right'. Does this make any sense?

Thanks,

Nick


I am getting behind with all of this because of what happened on Monday but the good news is that I will be getting a brand new car within a few days.

Yes, Nick, you are right about what you observe. Obviously, you can't know for sure whether one of your intervals is really 6.000000 beats per second or 5.9736542 or 6.000123 but the mathematical calculations and Jason Kanter's graphs are based on exactly 6.0 beats per second.

I actually wrote an 18th Century style well temperament with basically the same sequence except that you start with 4 equal beating intervals each at 4 beats per second. You could do the same with 5 beats per second. Each would have its own sound but as you have guessed, the slower those first 4 intervals beat, the harsher (more dissonant) the wider M3s will be.

If you had 4 starting intervals at 7 beats per second and followed the same scheme, you would end up with a quasi equal temperament that would not have that special magic that the EBVT or EBVT III has. You do get the best results in nailing the initial 6 beats per second and subsequently getting all other equal beating intervals as equal beating as possible. The two pure intervals need to be very pure and not wide and also not having any hint of narrowness.

The outer octaves that equalize octaves and 5ths and double octaves and octave-5ths also contribute to the overall purity of the piano sound.


Nick and Bill, this is very much in line with my own findings - glad to find it confirmed here!




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Originally Posted by Inlanding
I was just thinking about this very subject, Bill - still trying to get it right.

When I am setting the EBVT III temperament, no matter how close I get to 6bps on the key intervals, F#-A#, C#-F, and D#-G are wide, making the common keys of Ab, Fmin, Db, Bbmin, Eb, and Ebmin, Cmin sound somewhat harsh - and of course it gets worse the more I stretch the octaves, etc. If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Any idea what I am doing wrong? I've been using a metronome set at 120 and count 3bps on those key intervals to get them set. Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

Glen


Glen, - I'm glad you bring this up. Here are the results of my own empirical research on the subject smile :

F#-A# easily gets a bit too wide if you favor the fifth instead of placing F#3 truly equal-beating (F#3-B3/F#3-C#4). Sometimes the 6:4 fools me into easing the tempering of the fifth, and that gives me this result.

C#4-F4 gets a bit too wide if the F3-F4 is larger than 4:2. Combine this with stretching generously in placing C#2, and you'll get a very fast 10th. I have chosen to error towards the narrow side if anything - that is, my F3-F4 is **absolutely not** wider than 4:2.

D#4-G4 gets a bit too wide if you stretch G4 a little too much in favoring the fifth C4-G4. This will also have you make a bigger compromise in the D4-D5 octave once you get up there. This balance (C4-G4-D5 vs D4-D5) is one of the hardest choices to make, just as Bill stated in his instructions to me some close to six months ago.
Again, combine this with a largely stretched D#3 and you'll have a very fast 10th.



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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

Here is the opening number from the 2002 Jazz concert. It is a 14 1/2 minute file but there is a full minute of silence before the piano plays, so you can skip ahead 1 minute and then you will hear the music. The piano plays solo first and the alto saxophone follows. Then the piano has a solo. The engineering is unfortunately badly balanced with the Bass being louder than anything else.

It is a familiar tune but I can't think of the name of it at the moment.

http://www.box.net/shared/2sb4244s7b


Wild piano player... suddenly I miss the US wink Who is it?
The tune is "On Green Dolphin Street"


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Originally Posted by pppat

Wild piano player... suddenly I miss the US wink Who is it?
The tune is "On Green Dolphin Street"


The pianist is James Williams but he died a few years after the recording was made.


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Ah, I remember him from my NY days. His work with bass player Christian McBride is great!


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Originally Posted by FogAudio
Hi Jake,

1-bit recording has been marching into obscurity for the last 4-5 years or so. Technically it has many advantages over PCM but also a few disadvantages (and those are hard to overcome).

You can google Super Audio CD (SACD) or Direct Stream Digital (DSD) for more on its short-lived history.

Regards,
Ryan


Jake and GP,
what FogAudio says.

The idea is good, and it has many advantages over especially the cd standard 16-bit/44.1 kHz). The 64x oversampling splits the opinion, though, as do the reluctance to introduce yet another standard on the market.

When I mix pre-masters for CD I always send them in 24-bit or 32-bit float, because I know the receiver at the mastering plant can deal with them comfortably.

That said, it might be a very nice solution for a recording system that fits your needs, GP!


Last edited by pppat; 05/04/10 06:41 PM.

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Originally Posted by Inlanding

It's just that in the context of music, the main theme of Pathetique's second movement (Ab) is largely thirds and other intervals. Brahms Intermezzo 117 No 2 (Db) uses many two note intervals, not just thirds.

Thanks in advance,
Glen


I noticed when I tried these chords that the G#2-C4 M10 seemed to beat exactly the same as the F3-A3 M3, 6 beats per second. Looking at Jason Kanter's graph, the G#3-C4 beats at 10.1 beats per second. That is not all that fast. The M10 would be half that amount and perhaps because of octave stretching, it very closely approximates that "magic" 6 beats per second.

Again, considering that Beethoven would probably have used a stronger temperament, he chose the key of A-flat for the "warble" it has. Herr Stopper once commented about that, like the voice of a warbly mezzo soprano in a church choir. That is the sound Beethoven wanted. ET takes it away, plain and simple.


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