Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum My Piano in EBVT III

It was a trick, but you saw right through it Bill!!

Actually, I did not have the Korg or the Avenson's back in Dec of 2009.

Appreciate the compliments about my tuning.

I agree with you, the ET is fine, but lacks the color and complexity that EBVT III brings to the music. The difference between the two is quite amazing.

I found another Eric Reed example, same end effect here, more colors and a more complex sound to the music with EBVT III. Same recording equipment used as the "Oh Danny Boy" recording above.

Jazz 1 p/by Eric Reed on the LX, in EBVT III (Using Tunelab for the Iphone) http://www.box.net/shared/oy850lbv4l

Jazz 1 p/by Eric Reed on the LX, in ET (Reyburn Cyber Tuner, OCT5 stretch) http://www.box.net/shared/x0vj94cjyk

I hope Nick and Pat will contribute, as well as any other folks out there!

Bill,

I have tuned the EBVT III for two customers who are audiophiles and were absolutely thrilled. I am told that recordings have been made, and will be shared.

For my own purposes I plan to make some of my own recordings, and will use the EBVT III also. It has just been not too long ago since my last recording session. I promise what I think will be spectacular results! At least that is what I and my customers think about the way the pianos sound.

Thanks,

Nick

Bill,

I do have a question/observation and I wondered if it was accurate, and thought it might benefit others on this thread; so I will post it here rather than send to you as a private message.

In establishing the framework in EBVT III of the 4 rapidly beating intervals, it is obviously very important to nail the 6 beats per second, especially because you are going to match this beat rate to the other intervals.

As I am doing this aurally and getting comfortable with this tuning, there obviously has been some slight variation in my results. It has occured to me that if my beat rate is not quite as fast as the true 6 bps, I will be on the edge of dissonance in some chords. And conversely, if I am slightly more than 6 bps, it will just not sound as special, more like ET. I got this clue from the inverted thirds (relative to ET) sounding either too inverted or not enough, when of course they need to be 'just right'. Does this make any sense?

Thanks,

Nick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvNO0BfBecc

Thats what the poetry there make sme think of !

Great guys ! and huge artists !

Honestly, Isaac, I cannot understand what you are talking about.

GP,
In the Danny Boy samples, I replayed the opening three notes over and over again until my non-tuner-trained ears caught it.

The ET is "wongy" as the notes sustain. The EBVT III is calm and clear. The beautiful dissonance of the "chord" is there in both samples, but it pulses like a head-ache in the ET, and it does not in the EBVT III.

Thank you for the excellent recordings to compare!

--Andy

Andy, you're welcome!

Nick and Patrick, looking forward to hearing your recordings.

Nick, It does not surprise me that your 2 audiophile customers are thrilled with EBVT III.

Isaac, what is your point with a video such as that? I thought I was going to see and hear something worthwhile when I clicked on your link. Again, what is your point in posting that video here? Am I missing something?

I am getting behind with all of this because of what happened on Monday but the good news is that I will be getting a brand new car within a few days.

Yes, Nick, you are right about what you observe. Obviously, you can't know for sure whether one of your intervals is really 6.000000 beats per second or 5.9736542 or 6.000123 but the mathematical calculations and Jason Kanter's graphs are based on exactly 6.0 beats per second.

I actually wrote an 18th Century style well temperament with basically the same sequence except that you start with 4 equal beating intervals each at 4 beats per second. You could do the same with 5 beats per second. Each would have its own sound but as you have guessed, the slower those first 4 intervals beat, the harsher (more dissonant) the wider M3s will be.

If you had 4 starting intervals at 7 beats per second and followed the same scheme, you would end up with a quasi equal temperament that would not have that special magic that the EBVT or EBVT III has. You do get the best results in nailing the initial 6 beats per second and subsequently getting all other equal beating intervals as equal beating as possible. The two pure intervals need to be very pure and not wide and also not having any hint of narrowness.

The outer octaves that equalize octaves and 5ths and double octaves and octave-5ths also contribute to the overall purity of the piano sound.

I was just thinking about this very subject, Bill - still trying to get it right.

When I am setting the EBVT III temperament, no matter how close I get to 6bps on the key intervals, F#-A#, C#-F, and D#-G are wide, making the common keys of Ab, Fmin, Db, Bbmin, Eb, and Ebmin, Cmin sound somewhat harsh - and of course it gets worse the more I stretch the octaves, etc. If I go less than what I calculate as 6bps, it messes with the "pipe-organ" effect when playing arpeggios in the keys of C, G, and F...

Any idea what I am doing wrong? I've been using a metronome set at 120 and count 3bps on those key intervals to get them set. Also, I go back and ensure the pure intervals are as close as I can get them that way.

Glen

I went back to the recordings I made of "The Age of Innocence" in ET from my ETD that has both the Reyburn Cyber Tuner and the Stopper Only Pure programs installed. I posted these 2 recordings in a previous thread comparing the 2 temperaments. I now have my IPhone/Tunelab tuning of this piece in EBVT III. Here are all 3 for an interesting comparison.


1. "The Age of Innocence" in ET, Reyburn Cyber Tuner, OCT5 stretch. Recorded Oct 7, 2009, Zoom H4, Rode NT5 mics http://www.box.net/shared/hagt0fk2ly


2. "The Age of Innocence" in ET, Stopper Only Pure Tuning Temperament, Recorded Oct 17, 2009, Zoom H4, Rode NT5 mics, http://www.box.net/shared/s4huo9y1pm


3. "The Age of Innocence" in EBVT III, tuned using my Iphone/Tunelab, Recorded March 10, 2010, Korg MR-1000, Avenson STO-2 mics, http://www.box.net/shared/p0vookkmm5

Thank you for your question, Glen, although I am not sure what you mean by "less than 6 bps". Do you mean slower or faster? In any case, someone whom I did not know at all, Dr. Herbert Anton Kellner from Germany (now deceased) had seen what I had written about the EBVT many years ago and took it upon himself to write to me and wrote me a yearly Christmas card until his death.

He seemed to think that 6 beats per second had some exceptional quality to it and was a stroke of genius on my part. He said it had a psychological effect and went on to describe how it worked with time and space. It synchronizes evenly with the second hand of a clock (whereas the 7 beats per second of the F3-A3 M3 of ET is out of synchronicity as are all other Rapidly beating Intervals of ET). He seemed to believe it was the very rhythm of life.

You can read some of Dr. Kellner's writings here: http://plaza.ufl.edu/wnb/baroque_temperament.htm

When I have people on my side such as Professor Owen Jorgensen RPT, Dr. Kellner, honorary Dr. Jim Coleman RPT, the esteemed and most highly respected tuning authority, Virgil Smith RPT and now internationally known instructor of piano technology Randy Potter RPT confirming the validity of what I do, not to mention PTG having me present these ideas three times already at its conventions, it is easy for me to be dismissive of comments from the "peanut gallery".

Glen, you have to get away from what "banging" on the wider M3s sounds like to you in that context alone. If you do that, only ET will sound "right" to you. You have to remember that tuning the piano is preparation for the music that will be played. Playing isolated intervals is not playing music.

If you have a perfectly executed ET, each and every interval is slightly bad but when you play music in that perfectly executed ET, you don't hear that. The same goes for either version of the EBVT. Look beyond the beating of any particular interval out of musical context. Follow the directions, do your best with them and then decide for yourself if any and all music is not enhanced over the way it would be in ET or not.

If, in the end, you have heard both and you decide that you still prefer ET, I accept that and it is OK with me. What I dismiss is the preconceived idea that the EBVT or EBVT III won't work and the completely out of proportion descriptions of its effects. It is not unequal enough for most proponents of Historical Temperaments (HT). The slightest audible deviation from ET is too much for the proponents of ET only.

You have to make up your own mind about these ideas and use them as you see fit in your daily work. Even if you decide that what I do is not for you, that is OK with me. At least you have given it fair and proper consideration. You will always know that you have an alternative if the opportunity presents itself.

Once again, the "pipe organ effect", as curious, interesting and thrilling as it may be, is not a goal in itself or a reason to tune the piano in a way that would produce it. Very little music as written would reveal it. The amazing effect that I hear only confirms to me that I have made an optimum compromise in the temperament and the extended octaves.

An organ's pipes have no inharmonicity. If I am able to manipulate the piano's tuning so that the effect as a whole sounds like a pipe organ, it merely means to me that I have handled the problem of inharmonicity in the most effective way I can. It is like well spread icing on a cake. Sloppy icing would taste just as good but the appeal to the eye of a good presentation has another appeal all its own.

A well tuned piano in ET with whichever amount of stretch in the octaves will sound good. The question is if one amount of stretch will make the overall appeal better or not. The question further is if manipulation of the temperament will also add to that appeal. You must decide this for yourself.

Glen, if you play an F Major or D-flat Major arpeggio (which both have pure 5ths in the EBVT III), you will not hear the "pipe organ effect"! The chord will sound good and pure but it will not mimic the sound of a pipe organ. Only the C major arpeggio gives you the truly splendid effect for a number of reasons. A few of the other keys have it to a lesser degree. G, D, A and E, (maybe even B) Major, the more tempered 5ths keys will but all of the keys which have less tempered 5ths will not.

GP, I took the time to listen to all three of these again carefully as I have done before and I still come to the same conclusion: there is only a "shade" of difference between the RCT and the Stopper tuning. Both sound good and nice. I prefer the "sparkle" of the Stopper tuning over the RCT in the higher registers but the RCT does sound "warmer" in the middle while the Stopper sounds a bit strained and "tart".

The EBVT III version, however renders emotion to the music in a way that the other two fail to provide. The player system plays each exactly the same but somehow, the EBVT III version sounds like a different interpretation that is more appealing. The modulations are more meaningful and the return to the home key is therefore more musically satisfying.

I consistently find this happening with the EBVT, EBVT III or any other Cycle of 5ths based temperament.

GP, I am now listening to the ET/RCT version of the Eric Reed recording and find it thoroughly enjoyable. I hear some "liquid" unisons and that tells me why some people like that bit of "color". The sound is pleasant and the chords are resonant. Good sound overall, nothing negative to say about it. I will now audition the EBVT III version.

I get the same experience again! It somehow seems that the pianist plays with more feeling, more emotion! Every chord seems to have more meaning to it compared to the sterility of ET. I hear the "blue note" effect that was absent in ET. In short, the music seems to "come alive" in a way that it did not and could not in ET. I heard tension and resolution at the end that I did not in the ET version.

Once again, without being able to hear an ET comparison, I hear emotion. I hear more of the mood from the minor key than I would expect to hear from the same thing played in ET.

Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to clarify what I have been experiencing. I think your written instructions are marvelous, in case they are available to anyone for the asking.

It's funny how this style of tuning already fit so well with what I was already doing as an aural only ET tuner using rapidly beating intervals (mostly 3rds) to set my temparament. I was even taught to set my first note using a fork that was 6 beats off, in order to get the pitch just right. For those not familiar with this, I was taught it is much better to learn to count 6 beats per second then to try to make 'pure', where there might actually be 1.5 beats in 5 seconds for example.

Since Bill has confirmed that 6 beats per second is critical, I have found this helpful link from Cy Shuster's website:

http://shusterpiano.com/6-bps.mp3

Just go to bed at night listening to this LOL.

Sorry to me no mood or emotion at all (Ok it is a player piano, but that is exactly what i hear).

Here are two short clips of historic Chopin recordings in ET, each one with a slightly different stretch (german broadcasting archive, from 1942):

http://www.dra.de/online/hinweisdienste/musik/1999/oktober17.html

Clip 1 is from my former piano teacher Else Herold, i hear a stretch very close to the tuning protocol i am using, and the second clip is from Hubert Giesen, where a stretch closer to standard ET is present.

The mood, emotion and "cantabile" in Else Herold´s interpretation is incredicble and benefits in my opinion of the shining and clarity of the tuning, which is not present in the other clip and which can obviously not occur with using an unequal temperament, as the liveliness of unequal temperament would destroy the required calm and pure character in the D-flat key in this piece.

Else Herold was a pupil of Emil von Sauer, who was a pupil of Nikolai Rubinstein and Franz Liszt.

Bernhard Stopper

Thanks for that link, Nick. It would be a useful tool to put on my website. I have something similar now for the contiguous major thirds in my ET section. By the way, I recently updated the basic instructions on my website for tuning the EBVT.

http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/summary_ebvt_sequences.pdf

The results do not change. I didn't like to have to add more words but I really think what I did makes it more technically correct. Robert Scott (Tunelab) had pointed out to me that tuning a pure 4th from C4 that had been tuned as a pure 5th from F3 didn't really exactly make F3-F4 a 4:2 octave, even though it would have been close. So, I have you tune A#3 from F3 temporarily as a pure 4th. When you tune a pure 5th from A#3 to F4, that really does make F3-F4 a perfect 4:2 octave.

Later, you sharpen A#3 slightly to temper the F3-A#3 4th so that the F3-A#3 4th beats exactly the same as the previously tuned G3-C4 4th.

These instructions follow the example of some historical temperament instructions that really allow anyone to replicate the temperament accurately by ear. The only regrettable part is that I had to use one beat rate specification, 6 beats per second but that is very easy to get right. Any of these instructions that have beat rate instructions with decimal points in them are virtually useless. Who could ever know if they are exactly right?

For that matter, getting 6 beats per second exactly right is hit or miss and so is making any two intervals beat exactly the same. However, a good tuner can come close enough with these to make the results be what is intended.

Bernhard, thank you for your contribution. I tried to listen to the files but my computer does not recognize them. Is there any way you could convert them to Windows Media Player or MP3?

Bill,
you need to install codec to be able to play real player stream format.
You can use a free real player codec package that is available here, which works for several players so you don´t need to install the commercial real player:
http://files.3dnews.org/pub/soft/multimedia/player/Real_Alternative_202.exe

Bernhard, thank you for that link. I have heard the recordings. I am planning to meet with GP again after the convention and we are hoping to have a guest pianist who plays Chopin. If we are lucky, we will have a recording of that same music for comparison in the EBVT III played by a live pianist rather than the player system.