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The answer's obvious. Teacher A should send the student to the drop-and-scratch guy in London

j/k

I'm not catching this. How is this helpful?

???????

Just a joke - as indicated with the smiley, and the j/k. I like KbK.

However, the real answer is basic business ethics. You don't suggest a teacher is bad/doing harm/etc in a way that directly benefits you. You should suggest that maybe the student would benefit from a different teacher. Even then, you need to be careful because it's a small world.

Yes! That is very true in the piano community. I am very careful with what I say. Before I send out any e-mails to other teachers or parents, I have to read them twice before hitting SEND. You never know when your words will come back to bite you.

from the drop and scratch guy in London.

We had. But that was before I realized what a quagmire it was once you start tossing rules around.

There should be a sticky - To Poach or Not To Poach.

John v.d.Brook,

“We've had an ongoing problem with teachers from the former Eastern Block nations trying to "steal" students. I chalk it up to a difference in ethical standards and backgrounds; I'm sure they don't realize how totally offensive it is.”

Wow. How totally offensive is that. And I would bet you consider yourself cultured and sophisticated. What extreme irony.

Biff

Dark Dragon,

After reading your comments, it seems abundantly clear that some therapy is in order. Do yourself a favor. Life is short.

Biff

DarkDragon, Since the student, their parents and this other teacher don't have a problem with this kind of multi-teacher relationship,why should they be expected to modify their choices to suit you,or some music teachers Association?
Instead of damning others for some ethical breach and expecting them to change their choices, why don't you simply arrange your student relationships,exclusive or not,wrong or right,by your own judgement and they can do the same. Isn't that enough?

If my students feel they have something to learn from you, they are welcome to seek you out. I would consider it my duty to allow them to seek advice wherever they wish. I am an advisor, not a commander. I think the definition offered- where a teacher specifically goes out of their way to obtain students from another does make sense, although I wouldn't be hugely troubled. I am comfortable that my students feel they have something to learn from me. Anyway, do you have a jot of evidence that this occurred? It sounds to me like someone else recommended this teacher from "Poland" (not quite sure why you used quotation marks for that word).





You are welcome to feel hurt and say so. However, if you think I'm going to hold your hand while you vent your rage so appallingly xenophobically, then forget it. Your posts contain vastly more unprofessionalism than they suggest of the teacher who you are making your scapegoat. If you want to avoid such feelings in the future, I'd advise you to consider what I said about who is the master and who is the servant. Remember how teaching actually works. If you accept what it is, you have a far easier time than if you treat it as your chance to wield power. If that's how you treat it, you're in for a major disappointment when circumstances (inevitably) serve to remind you that it doesn't all revolve around you.

"I only said I didn't have time at the start of the lesson yesterday. This intrusion on my students progress came BEFORE I was notified of anything. Am I not allowed to have a single night to think about the situation before saying something?"

By all means feel aggrieved by the parents actions. You would have my sympathy. However, if your response it to make scarcely veiled slurs about ethnicity and to have a go at another teacher who you evidently know little about then you lose my respect at once.If you want to vent rage in a totally unprofessional manner, I don't see what makes you think this forum is the place. God forbid that the average student should stumble across such a post and think that this is how teachers behave. Do these people know how openly you judge people based on their country of origin? I'm amazed they stuck with you for so long. If you want support during the more difficult moments, then act with dignity. Such situations are part and parcel of teaching. If you deal with them by going on a rant about having your power challenged and by casting stones left, right and centre, they are not going to become any easier.

Wow some people are making it seem like I don't care about the student at all and that I'm just looking out for #1, me lol
Am I some slave to society that gets paid to teach a lesson and then is tossed away with no regard all in the interest of the student? The reason all my clients pay in full, in advance is because they are using my services for the long term. I am not just the teacher during the lesson. I am the teacher all the time and my student has access to me all the time (you know what I mean lol). It definitely is not all about what the client thinks is best for their daughter, because they don't really know enough about music to make that decision. That is what we are for. We educated the students and parents so that they can make informed decisions. When my client is referred by a non-musician to take lessons from some teacher who will be clearly interfering with my work, that is a big deal. The parents need to know that I'm going to have an issue when my work with a student is essentially being compromised by a third party.

On a mini side note...

I saw my old student today at my school. Just for fun, she decided to play me a song her new teacher taught her. Did I correct her, teach her something different, modify anything for the better of the student??? Not my place. She has a teacher, as my student has me.

Are you saying we don't have an ongoing problem with former Eastern Block teachers attempting to steal our students? If so, may I ask how you arrived at that conclusion?

Or are you saying that they are not doing so because of differences in ethical standards and backgrounds but some other reason? Could you share with us what those reasons might be?

Thank you.

I think the problem for me is that concern for the child's development did not exactly come across as number one priority- judging from the tone of your posts.

eg. "Teachers who thinks its ok to undermine me and do supplementary lessons with my student without my prior knowledge..."

It sounded far more to me like the challenge to your authority was the number one issue. If this does stem out of sincere concern for the student (rather than your own insecurities) you need to think long and hard about how you're going to convey that to the parents. When a teacher considers the idea of a student having a lesson from another teacher to be a case of undermining them, I'm wondering why the teacher is so scared of being undermined. If another teacher suggested something different, I would either show them a valid reason why my alternative is better or I would just say fine. I would not feel challenged at all by alternate ideas.

The problems come in when the student has an alternative and you want them to do it your way- but you can't give any good reason as to why. At that point, you either start thinking about alternative possibilities and expand your understanding, or you stamp your foot and declare that nobody else must interfere with your authority. Maybe that's the case here, maybe it isn't. But this always springs to mind when a teacher is protective about interference. I usually wonder whether the kind of 'interference' that the student must be 'protected' from is better ideas.

The teacher who posted this topic probably will never be able to forget the "sin" of the father who took his child to a new teacher without telling the teacher of his plans. After 3 years with a teacher, the father is either satisfied with the teacher or he isn't and is testing the waters with another teacher. For whatever reason he has, the father and the child, have already taken steps to leave.

That the new teacher speaks the same native language and lives close to them and has done a good job so far in working with a transfer student is beneficial to the new teacher and the family. The only thing to verify at this point is to compare costs and to project future plans in the student's education.

With the present teacher holding onto one arm and the new teacher standing in the wings, it's likely the student is going to feel juggled about in the wings before the distress is over.

What does the student want to do? If father, mother, student can discuss among themselves what they have received from the first teacher, where that is going in the future, and then to consider, is it time for a change and is this 2nd teacher the ideal candidate as the next teacher.

No one "owns" a student, but we often "invest" a lot in our students and we are disappointed when a student leaves before we feel it's time. If we want to avoid abrupt or hostile departures from our students leaving with little to no notice, we must be communicating with the parents and the students at all times about what is good and what is an issue in our relationships.

It's one thing as a business person and a piano teacher to speak, think, behave so that problems can be avoided in the first place, or best, handled to a mutually respectable conclusion that is best for the student's needs.

It's already too late, I think. It's just that the barn door has not been shut yet. Why someone would "dangle" between two teachers is not clear to me. It's costly financially to do that and it could work out that neither teacher will be interested in the father and student.

Wherever there are happy people participating in music lessons, and a good fit between giving and receiving good instruction, and good communication skills, this kind of thing is not the least bit likely to happen.

As far as teachers actually "stealing" students, it's been known to happen. Clients of such teachers should be aware that that is a "clue" as to what they will be purchasing. A piano teacher with proven reputation and integrity is going to be the best choice. These teachers usually associate with others like themselves who have the same kinds of interests in competitions, festivals, student events, and they work toward the best outcome for all within their peer groups. Teacher associations exemplify the cooperativeness and intentions of giving piano education to students in a professional and ethical forum of similarly minded musicians and teachers. Ethics are important.

Some clients may have not met that best teacher yet as it's hard to search through the chaff of what is being offered as piano lessons in our world.

"Polish teacher trying to get a piece of my student" emphasizes what is wrong and unnecessary in the guize of established music education. There are a whole lot of "mavericks" out there. Caveat emptor.

Betty Patnude

Dark Dragon, I'd like to reiterate what I suggested before.

This is an opportunity. You would like the lessons to be longer, and for the student to practice more, because this is needed for her progress. Seeing a second teacher is similar to having longer lessons, and signals that the father is seeing a need for more. So you use that. Explain the need for consistent lessons in one style by one teacher, and that instead of working with a second teacher, it's more effective to work longer with the first teacher, and make changes in practising. Link this to the father's goals for his daughter's progress. In a sense you are on the same page.

What are the little girl's goals?

You cannot 'steal' students because they are not any person's property. I'm not aware of any basis for believing them to be so- be it ethical or legal. Sure, mafia-style organisations may try to dictate synthetic, self-protecting guidelines and try to enforce them on people. But there is no more "ethical" reason why a person cannot tout for business as a piano teacher than as a doctor or personal trainer. Theft does not come into this.

The only issue is a personal one. You would not seek to to take business off a personal acquaintance- just as you would not set up a rival burger bar in the same street as one that is run by your best friend. If someone tells me they learn piano with a teacher I don't know, I'm not going to say "I bet your teacher is rubbish". However, neither am I going make a secret of the fact that I am a teacher, through fear of breaking an imagined ethical boundary- should they go on to ask for a lesson.

John v.d.Brook,

"Are you saying we don't have an ongoing problem with former Eastern Block teachers attempting to steal our students? If so, may I ask how you arrived at that conclusion?

Or are you saying that they are not doing so because of differences in ethical standards and backgrounds but some other reason? Could you share with us what those reasons might be?"


I am saying that characterizing Eastern block teachers as a group that is attempting to steal or is attempting to steal more than another group is patently offensive. I am saying that suggesting they have ethical standards that are accepting of stealing is seriously offensive. I am saying that you personally are unevolved, unsophisticated, severely limited and offensive. I am saying that living a life that has been centered around a piano has given you a distorted perspective of yourself as somehow more than Neanderthal.

I hope I have been clear. I have been told that people with the name of van der Brook are part of a group that are slow to learn, unable to learn or only capable of learning the most base concepts not related to the piano.

Biff

Well, Biff, you're entitled to your opinion. Teaching in Germany as I was after the Wall came down, and the flood of unemployed musicians came in from the East, looking to earn a living anyway possible, I heard over and over again from my German colleagues about problems they were having.

Moving here to Olympia, I heard similar stories. Then I had an encounter with a teacher who actually cruised student recitals, trying to recruit students. In your world, that may be ethical behavior. In mine, it is not.

One question- Had he been black, would you have made the same generalisation about black teacher? Going specifically to a recital to tout for business would go beyond my personal yardstick, but it's not reasonable to judge a mass of people based on the geographical background of one particular person who behaved in a certain way.