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You are turning this into a moral issue. I have never described it that way. Please read carefully what I have posted before you completely mischaracterize what I say and sarcastically denigrate me as a racist or xenophobe.

I have argued that this dual enrollment is not likely to be stable or productive. I have made some fairly clear arguments about why I think this. You are free to disagree with those arguments. But I have never said anything about the morality of behavior. Switching teachers is fine. Accepting new students from other teachers is fine. Dual enrollment is problematic. And the problems it creates can get ugly. This is not helpful.

"Perhaps eastern European teachers regard poaching with a certain nonchalance ... it's the game, after all"

Had the teacher been black, would have said "perhaps black teachers..." I doubt it. I'm really not saying you a registered member of the KKK, but why make such a sweeping generalisation based on one single teacher? I find that really quite inappropriate. To use a word as inherently judgmental as "poach" makes it very much a moral issue.

I basically agree with the rest of what you say- but sometimes it's good to try a few teachers and see how things go. However, I'm not saying that this is better or worse. What I'm saying that anyone who'd have a go at a teacher for accepting a student who also goes to another teacher is totally in the wrong. There's a difference between spreading rumours that so and so is a paedophile, say in the hope of getting their students and simply accepting a student who comes to you.

Sarcasm, N, sarcasm. I also made reference to Pierogies and Kielbasa later on. You'll also recall another poster (landorrano) stating categorically that Polish teachers must have something going for them because Chopin was Polish. This all feeds into my writing style in that post. I don't care what the teacher's background happens to be (either one of 'em, actually).

We don't have a lot of information here. We do not know, for instance, whether this Polish teacher actually knows what's going on. I have speculated, perhaps correctly, that she probably does know. If so, I have outlined what I think would be the problems of that 'arrangement.' It would actually bother me if a teacher enrolled another student simultaneously without being up front with the family about the long term issues this creates. I think clarity is important. Students moving between teachers is normal and quite common. My own son has moved between teachers. But we have always been up front with the teachers, and the teachers have been clear with each other.

Maybe I should state that more clearly so that someone in North America has a chance to comprehend !

That comment is probably worth repeating in large colored print:

We do not "own" our students. They are free to do what they want.

This debate is so reminiscent of that controversial thread that came up a while back about the teacher who was distraught to discover that his/her student had participated in another teacher's recital. Anybody remember that one?

My view then, as it is now, is that students have the right to choose the music they play and the teacher(s) they take lessons from. So I see the student, and the student's family, in the current case as behaving entirely appropriately.

Of course, the following is *also* true:

Teachers have the right to set their studio policies however they wish.

Apparently it is extremely distressing to DarkDragon that the student is taking lessons simultaneously from another teacher. The proper solution to that dilemma is for DD to tell the student that his/her studio policy requires that students do not take lessons from anybody other than DD while enrolled in DD's studio. The ball is in then in the family's court as to whether they wish to continue taking lessons from DD under such constraints.

I know what my answer would be. I tend to get my dander up when others try to dictate what I can do in my own hours.

As for the other teacher, I am in agreement with those here who hold him/her blameless. Student poaching surely violates professional ethics, but if the first contact was made by the student's family (which by all accounts it was), the teacher has, imo, behaved appropriately.

The bottom line in any profession is that the welfare of the client matters, and that the professional will exercise his/her judgment according to knowledge in the field. If it is harmful to the student's progress to have two teachers and the teacher knows this to be so, but the parents (who are not teachers in the field) don't know it, then this should be communicated. It is not a matter of anyone being "boss". In the same way, if a doctor tells you not to mix medication and alcohol, or advises to lose weight and exercise, this is professional advice. A teacher going on an ego trip is one thing. A teacher who has legitimate concerns about being able to do his job properly is another matter.

Okay, fair enough. I think we basically agree. I'd just say that in such situations it's the client who is behaving badly, if they are not open with both teachers about the arrangement. I don't think it's justified to frown upon anyone who knowingly takes a student who also works with another teacher- or to refer to it as 'poaching'.

I agree entirely, but how would you define "poaching"- out of interest? I'm struggling to see how anything could really be professionally wrong- other than lying and being unreasonably derogatory about other teachers or making promises that you know you cannot keep etc. If the teacher does not deceive the student, obviously they are going for something that they like- and which may very well be to their benefit. I don't see what a teacher who is comfortable in their abilities and who has the interests of the students placed first could possibly fear- other than outright deceit. What is your own definition of "poaching"?

Wow, this attitude goes against the standards of MTNA and other professional music teacher organizations, which represent thousands of teachers in the US.

surely an indictment of MTNA policy

I still have a few pages to read, but your's I will respond to first.
Tell you what. I'll make a move on your students without letting you know, and ultimately I will steal them off you because you will let them go without defending yourself in any way. It's all about the students right? I won't contact you and when "your" student comes to your lesson, he/she will be showing you things that I have taught her.

Why can't I vent and be angry? Is this not the place for me to vent and be angry? If I can't share my frustration with fellow teachers online, then (referring back to my festival argument) why would I even want to have this issues with teachers face to face? Is this not the place for me to deal with things in a mature and immature way so that when I speak to the father, I will have thought long and hard about what I'm going to say about this matter.

I only said I didn't have time at the start of the lesson yesterday. This intrusion on my students progress came BEFORE I was notified of anything. Am I not allowed to have a single night to think about the situation before saying something?

Poaching would be Teacher A approaching a student individually whom Teacher A knows already to be taking lessons from Teacher B and then suggesting to the student that the student take lessons from Teacher A.

Simply advertising would not be poaching, nor would making an overture in a group context (e.g., giving a recital and then announcing that one has openings in one's studio at the present moment).

So I was in a piano gallery last week playing some pianos. The owner and I had been talking and she knows my teacher. After talking for a while she suggested that I take lessons from one of her teachers in addition to my own teacher, even though she SEEMS to think highly of my teacher(She stated that people do this all the time). Is this poaching?

Ask your teacher what s(he) thinks of such an arrangement.

I did a quick Google search of piano teacher policies. This seems to be about standard:



This is from the ISM website, "the UK’s professional body for musicians."

At what point is Teacher A allowed to transgress this rule? When the student's in dire pain? When their career is heading down a chute?

That notice recognizes all the common sense issues that can plague this kind of market. You cannot easily legislate good professional behavior, but a code like that at least recognizes the basic forms of behavior that would make this market work smoothly while preserving mobility.

As I understand the rules, there is nothing to prohibit teacher A from suggesting to the student that he/she might be better off with teacher C. It is only when your suggestion directly benefits you that it becomes a problem. So by all means, if you see a student struggling for all the wrong reasons, feel free to suggest an alternative, as long as that alternative isn't yourself.

I think it depends on whether Teacher A belongs to a professional organization that contains a set of ethics rules like the ones Lollipop quoted. If so, the answer is "Never." Of course, we could then start a huge philosophical debate about rule-breaking in the service of a greater need, etc., at which point I will be happy to bow out of the debate.

I thought we had started that debate.