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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1420182
04/19/10 06:35 PM
04/19/10 06:35 PM
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Basic question. Can Ableton Live record audio from a plug-in software instrument? Not the midi, but the audio from it? If someone could be kind enough to post the instructions then I'll upload the Vienna Imperial. I'm lazy, I don't want to read reams of manual to get to it.... Well, actually it's killing my precious practice time.

Last edited by NikkiPiano; 04/19/10 07:06 PM.
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420568
04/20/10 11:33 AM
04/20/10 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NikkiPiano
Basic question. Can Ableton Live record audio from a plug-in software instrument?


[RESOLVED]

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang] #1420605
04/20/10 12:58 PM
04/20/10 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Yes, the layer switching leaves a lot to be desired in the EWQLP.
The specs say "10 to 18" velocity levels, but it just doesn't seem to live up to that. In the Steinway, there's one note with just 6 samples in it's respective sample folder


I've decided I prefer sample sets to self contained virtual instruments. With samples, I can load them into my sampler and see for myself what is done. I can look and see exactly what WAV file a piano key and velocity map to. I can play that WAV file in some other players an listen to it and if I want edit it.

Also, I've found that the samples don't have to be "regular". That is I can have 6 velocity layers for some notes and three for other notes. Note streching can happen on some velocities and not others. So when someone claims that some piano stretches notes, you have to ask "what if you play louder or softer, are they still stretched?" Same for loops, Every note and every velocity can be looped or not. Knowing this I can read the specs better. When it reads "up to 9 velocity samples" I figure that applies only the the notes near middle C. Also they might loop the ppp samples because no one would expect to play ppp and hold it for 15 seconds but at fff they might have the feull 15 second sample. As I look more in detail I find that the engineer who puts a sample set together has to make literally thousands of decisions and each one effects quality. But on the self-contained VSTs you can't see inside and you can't make any changes.


Last edited by ChrisA; 04/20/10 03:05 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA] #1420617
04/20/10 01:18 PM
04/20/10 01:18 PM
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I'm disappointed after seeing the analysis of EWQLP. I was on the verge of purchasing it. Instead, I went for the Vienna Imperial which has up to 100 velocities per key. The velocity transitions appear undetectable, even better than my Clavinova. I don't believe anyone has uploaded the mp3 yet for analysis. Should be interesting.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420684
04/20/10 03:55 PM
04/20/10 03:55 PM
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Chris,
Yes, I'd prefer the QLP to be "open" like that, however, I simply could not resist getting it because it just sounds so damned good. ;^) Also, the "Pro" version of the EW Play engine will allow the instruments to be inspected and edited as you describe. (I just hope that EW themselves do make further improvements to Pianos though)

Greg.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420767
04/20/10 07:01 PM
04/20/10 07:01 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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EastWest Quantum Leap Bosendorfer 290 / Steinway D / Yamaha C7 Reviews

Along with the EastWest Quantum Leap Bechstein D-280 (reviewed above), Petr (pesk) also submitted DPBSD MP3 files for the Bosendorfer 290, Steinway D, and Yamaha C7 - thanks loads Petr!

I fully reviewed and captured analysis pictures of the Bosendorfer, but the other two pianos are technically so similar to it and the Bechstein D-280 that I decided to forgo the full treatment and just comment on them a bit here.

The Bosendorfer is fully sampled, though I did find a stretch group of two in the bass region. The Yamaha only has a few stretch groups of two, but surprisingly the Steinway has quite a few of these two note stretches going on.

I didn't see any evidence of looping in any of these three pianos. The decays are fairly long, particularly for the lower notes, and the sympathetic resonance is nice as it is sampled. But the velocity layer transitions for all are unfortunately quite audibly abrupt and pronounced.

Again there seems to be quite a bit of timbre variation between adjacent notes, with bright and dull notes all over the place.

The Steinway in particular has a lot of rumbling air conditioner noise in the left channel, and crackling noise in the right. I'm not sure if that sample set is salvageable at all - quite a shame.

MP3s for all three and pics for the Bosendorfer are up at the share point.

-------------------------------------------------------
- EastWest Quantum Leap Bosendorfer 290 Concert Grand -
-------------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dbpsd_v1.6_ewql_bosendorfer_290.mp3
- EWQL Play engine 1.2.5.3, recorded in Cubase 5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except ambiance off, release articulation +6 dB.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Realistic "buzzy" string damp sound.
- Beautiful long note decay.
- No looping.
- No stretching (except for one stretch group of 2).
- 12 velocity layers visible and audible.
- Velocity switch @ vel=12,22,28,36,52,72,78,94,104,110,116
- Nice sympathetic resonance.
- Large dynamic range (44dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes/fails the pedal down silent replay test, no damping during test, but note continues past the end!
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Many samples have low frequency noise (air conditioner?).
- C6 sample has footfall sounds.
- C8 sample has faint voices and scratching sounds.
- High notes decay rather quickly.
- No pedal up/down sounds.
- Variation in sound (muffled/bright) between adjacent notes is unusually pronounced.
- Velocity layer switches quite visible and unusually audible.
- No key-up sound if damper pedal down?
OTHER:
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.25dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-20.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420769
04/20/10 07:09 PM
04/20/10 07:09 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NikkiPiano
I'm disappointed after seeing the analysis of EWQLP. I was on the verge of purchasing it. Instead, I went for the Vienna Imperial which has up to 100 velocities per key. The velocity transitions appear undetectable, even better than my Clavinova. I don't believe anyone has uploaded the mp3 yet for analysis. Should be interesting.

If you want to upload a DPBSD MP3 of the Vienna Imperial I'll definitely take a look at it!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1420789
04/20/10 08:13 PM
04/20/10 08:13 PM
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Hertfordshire, UK
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I can't see how to upload to your directory. Never mind. http://www.mediafire.com/file/jm02dzvgmdd/dp_bsd_v1.5_VSL_Vienna_Imperial.mp3

Rendered in Ableton Live and compressed in Sony Vegas..

Default "Close" setting used. Reverb off.

Last edited by NikkiPiano; 04/20/10 08:15 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420805
04/20/10 08:41 PM
04/20/10 08:41 PM
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Sydney, Australia
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I hadn't noticed the stretching in the EWQLP - thanks for the heads up Dewster. I continue to be impressed by this product, despite all your bad news. ;^) ;^) (btw I too think that your testing is very worthwile - thankyou!)

Greg.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1420820
04/20/10 09:02 PM
04/20/10 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NikkiPiano
I can't see how to upload to your directory. Never mind. http://www.mediafire.com/file/jm02dzvgmdd/dp_bsd_v1.5_VSL_Vienna_Imperial.mp3

Rendered in Ableton Live and compressed in Sony Vegas..

Default "Close" setting used. Reverb off.


Wow... 500GB, 800$, and it has stretches. About 50 groups.. On the other hand, absolutely no velocity-switches.

[Linked Image]


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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1420878
04/20/10 10:31 PM
04/20/10 10:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,382
Hamamatsu, Japan
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500gb?!
Seriously?

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1420893
04/20/10 10:55 PM
04/20/10 10:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bkmz
Wow... 500GB, 800$, and it has stretches. About 50 groups.. On the other hand, absolutely no velocity-switches

Uh oh, someone's putting me out of a job smile !

Stretching groups of 2 as far as the eye can see, very surprising. No partial pedal support, but I think it passes the pedal down silent replay. And like bkmz says, no velocity switching, unusual for a PC sampler.

NikkiPiano, could I bother you to render it again using the DPBSD v1.6 MIDI file instead? I'm interested to see if it does partial pedal damping and wonder if the string resonance is very sophisticated.

Oh - and thanks much! Very interesting...

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1420911
04/20/10 11:29 PM
04/20/10 11:29 PM
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sullivang Offline
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It's 500Gb, but only 50GB on disk - very impressive, given that it would be lossless compression presumably.

Greg.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang] #1420933
04/20/10 11:59 PM
04/20/10 11:59 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Greg, I doubt 10:1 compression is currently possible using lossless algorithms. FLAC, ALAC, APE, etc. compress audio files to approximately 50-60% of their original size, however even the most optimised decoder will require some overhead, thus largely preventing realtime playback.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1421029
04/21/10 03:18 AM
04/21/10 03:18 AM
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The lowest latency (about 2ms) 'near-lossless' CODEC I know of, suitable for realtime use, is this one: http://www.aptx.com/Technology-Portfolio/apt-X-Bluetooth.aspx

An application example of this technology can be found here:
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_wireless-headphones_502384

I don't think this currently yields sufficient quality for DP samples.


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: TADutchman] #1421042
04/21/10 03:35 AM
04/21/10 03:35 AM
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James,
Yes, I know all that, however the reason I said that I presumed that it would be lossless is simply that I would find it bizarre that VSL would use lossy compression for a very professional product such as this.

I'll ask VSL whether it's lossy or not and report back, if they give me permission to.

Greg.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1421052
04/21/10 03:51 AM
04/21/10 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Greg, I doubt 10:1 compression is currently possible using lossless algorithms. FLAC, ALAC, APE, etc. compress audio files to approximately 50-60% of their original size, however even the most optimised decoder will require some overhead, thus largely preventing realtime playback.

What he said. FWIW, current lossless compression algorithms (like FLAC) achieve about 2:1 compression with 24bit audio data and about 3:1 compression with 16bit audio data.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi] #1421057
04/21/10 04:10 AM
04/21/10 04:10 AM
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dewster, may I suggest yet another test again? It is a continuation of test 1 (damper resonance) and is sometimes referred to as "damper resonance re-pedalling". Here is the test:

1. Press a key loudly and hold it (for the duration of the whole test)
2. Shortly after that press the damper pedal.

Intermediate result: You should hear the sympathetic resonance engaging although the pedal was pressed after the key.

3. Release the damper pedal

Intermediate result: The sympathetic resonance should stop.

4. Repeat steps 2 and 3


I think most digital/sampler pianos fail that test because they have implemented damper pedal resonance only when you play notes after the damper pedal has been pressed and not when notes have been held before the damper. Two notable exceptions are Steinberg The Grand and Pianoteq.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/21/10 04:17 AM.

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene] #1421061
04/21/10 04:21 AM
04/21/10 04:21 AM
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That's a good suggestion! I already tested this with CA63 and the test was successful, all the steps were like in a real acoustic piano.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi] #1421075
04/21/10 05:35 AM
04/21/10 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi

What he said. FWIW, current lossless compression algorithms (like FLAC) achieve about 2:1 compression with 24bit audio data and about 3:1 compression with 16bit audio data.


Nevertheless, I'll be genuinely surprised if VSL have employed lossy compression. They do say they have developed the compression technique themselves - it is something new and special I think.

Perhaps they have found a way to exploit the similarity between velocity layers, for example.

Also, remember that for very long duration piano notes, the signal is very simple towards the end - almost sinusoidal.

Greg.

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