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Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 #1408233
04/01/10 12:31 AM
04/01/10 12:31 AM
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pianocubano Offline OP
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I'm not currently studying with a teacher, ergo this post. I'm currently working on the above referenced piece. Everything is going well, except I'm not 100% sure how to "synchronize" the grace note runs in the left hand with the rhythms in the right hand. If you're familiar with this piece, you know EXACTLY what I'm referring to.

Can anyone lend me a hand? laugh (How many times is THAT used on this forum?! LOL!)

Thanks!

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Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: pianocubano] #1408239
04/01/10 12:44 AM
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If I get what you mean -- the accompaniment to the third appearance of the theme -- that's a great question.

(If I don't get it, then I don't know if it's good or not. ha
And then the rest of this post is wasted. smile )


I struggled mightily with this, but once I arrived at a comfortable solution, it became one of the "easier" aspects of the piece, and it sounds impressive as all heck. smile

Of course there are all kinds of ways to do it, and someone who's terrific with scales and with technique in general maybe doesn't even have to think about what they're doing. But I sure have to.

I play the first note (the E#) just before the first A-C# of the R.H.
Then I play the next 6 notes basically as though they were 32nds -- i.e. two per 16th note of the RH (or the equivalent).

That leaves 3 more notes for the final "8th." I just play those as sort of a triplet, taking the same space as 2 of the preceding LH notes (so they have to be a little quicker), sort of an extra "sweep" at the end of the figure, leading up to the A, which I'm not counting as one of these "grace" notes -- it's the 'landing point'.

P.S. The above is a simplification. I don't exactly play it like that; for one thing, I don't play the 16th notes in the RH in an exact rhythmic way -- I delay a little before them and then play them more like 32nd notes, as though I'm "double dotting" the second half of the first beat. (We talked about that aspect of polonaise playing in this other thread: over here.)
And sometimes I play the first note together with the first A-C# of the RH rather than just before it, and then the figure has to be a little faster to fit it in. But what I described is the basic framework for me.

Let me know what you think of it!

P.S. This is my favorite piece in the world.

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: pianocubano] #1408981
04/01/10 09:40 PM
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Well???????? smile

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: pianocubano] #1409339
04/02/10 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by pianocubano
I'm not currently studying with a teacher, ergo this post. I'm currently working on the above referenced piece. Everything is going well, except I'm not 100% sure how to "synchronize" the grace note runs in the left hand with the rhythms in the right hand. If you're familiar with this piece, you know EXACTLY what I'm referring to.

Can anyone lend me a hand? laugh (How many times is THAT used on this forum?! LOL!)

Thanks!


Although I gave up this polonaise out of frustration with the preceding 8 bars, I thought I had the left hand runs sounding pretty good. I basically ignored the grace note font, and played them straight, lining up the g# in the left with the first 16th in the right, the b with the second 16th, etc, etc. To get an effect (grace) from it, I held the f# octaves slightly over value and rushed the scale to make up the time. Rubinstein uses this exaggeration in rhythm throughout the piece. You could dial it up or back to your taste.

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Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Damon] #1409415
04/02/10 12:44 PM
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^^ That was (basically) how I originally played it. ^^

BTW......what do you say about someone who asks a question, you give him a detailed answer, then he doesn't say anything.... [Linked Image]
It happens here occasionally, but not much.

It makes one reluctant to give him such answers again.

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1409438
04/02/10 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
^^ That was (basically) how I originally played it. ^^

BTW......what do you say about someone who asks a question, you give him a detailed answer, then he doesn't say anything.... [Linked Image]
It happens here occasionally, but not much.

It makes one reluctant to give him such answers again.


It doesn't really bother me. A lot of folks don't check the board but once a day or week: others treat the forum as a chat channel. It may be that the OP will yet read it and respond. It may also be useful information to someone else (80+ people read so far). Besides, it was fun to try out your answer. It made it harder for me. smile

P.S. - Not my favourite, but definitely in my top 5.

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Damon] #1409442
04/02/10 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
.....P.S. - Not my favourite, but definitely in my top 5.

Cool!
BTW.....you may catch me saying other pieces are my favorite too. smile

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Damon] #1409447
04/02/10 01:39 PM
04/02/10 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
[...]I thought I had the left hand runs sounding pretty good. I basically ignored the grace note font, and played them straight, lining up the g# in the left with the first 16th in the right, the b with the second 16th, etc, etc. To get an effect (grace) from it, I held the f# octaves slightly over value and rushed the scale to make up the time. Rubinstein uses this exaggeration in rhythm throughout the piece. You could dial it up or back to your taste.


Damon :

The way you were playing it as described above makes a great deal of musical sense and it conforms, more or less, to what is notated in the Peters and the new Polish National Edition (ed. Jan Ekier). In these two editions these particular measures are well-spaced on the page and it is clear that the left hand notes fall where you have placed them.

For what it's worth - and it amounts to exactly the same thing - the Novello edition (ed. Frank Merrick) has slightly different notation. They are written as sixteenth-notes (albeit in smaller print) but they are flagged together in groups as follows :

1. E-sharp, F-sharp : two sixteenth-notes grouped together
2. G-sharp, A, B, C-sharp : four sixteenth-notes grouped together (the G-sharp falling directly under the first right hand chord of A/C-sharp), (the B falling directly under the second right hand chord of A/C-sharp)
3. D-sharp, E-sharp, F-sharp, G-sharp, grouped together as four sixteenth-notes (beginning under the third right hand eighth-note chord of C-sharp/F-sharp)

Novello's notation in sixteenths notwithstanding the last eight notes of each of these passages are played as thirty-second-notes if one wanted to line them up directly with the right hand chords.

I would think that for practice purposes one could play this quite literally in time, per the Novello edition notation, but in performance one would probably do much as Damon suggests. I think that if Chopin wanted these to be played strictly in time with the right hand chords he would not have written them in the smaller print, or "grace note" notation.

Regards,


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Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: BruceD] #1409450
04/02/10 01:42 PM
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Bruce -- It sounds like you think such groupings in an edition mean something about what the grouping or rhythm is supposed to be. If so, I don't agree, even if the composer's manuscript grouped them that way, which in this case I'd bet dollars to donuts it didn't. IMO when notes are written "small" like that, one of the things that is implied is flexibility about those things.

If you just mean that the indicated grouping means it's a reasonable way to do it, surely you're right.

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1409456
04/02/10 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Bruce -- It sounds like you think such groupings in an edition mean something about what the grouping or rhythm is supposed to be. If so, I don't agree, even if the composer's manuscript grouped them that way, which in this case I'd better dollars to donuts it didn't. IMO when notes are written "small" like that, one of the things that is implied is flexibility about those things.

If you just mean that the indicated grouping means it's a reasonable way to do it, surely you're right.


I don't think I'm saying that at all; read my last paragraph - again. What I'm saying is that is the way the notation is in the Novello edition, but my last paragraph does not support strictly adhering to that notation.

Regards,


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Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: BruceD] #1409459
04/02/10 01:55 PM
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(Yes -- I see. I didn't get that before.)

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1416133
04/13/10 12:14 AM
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Mark_C -- thank you for your post and for offering suggestions. I don't know if there is a way to see how often a poster signs in. I've been extremely busy with work and so have neither had the opportunity to practice nor look at your post closely. Please don't take my reticence (or anyone else's) personally. I very much appreciated your insight, will try it how you've suggested and get back to you.

Thanks again.

Last edited by pianocubano; 04/13/10 12:16 AM.
Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: pianocubano] #1416139
04/13/10 12:27 AM
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(Hey, he's back!!!!!!) ha

Most welcome -- and I hope you will find it helpful.

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1416159
04/13/10 01:16 AM
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I will speak with person who told me to change up 1/2 note and just keep trying if you like. Does that make sense?



Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: curlyfries] #1416224
04/13/10 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LindaR
I will speak with person who told me to change up 1/2 note and just keep trying if you like. Does that make sense?

It might, if I understood it. smile

(Really -- I don't get what you're saying or asking.)

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1417524
04/14/10 11:20 PM
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I will need to go back to my 1st theory question (if I get to it) and see if that reply is still there-I thought it disappeared. I was/am so overwhelmed. Piano is tad out of tune blahblah. Funny. ha thumb



Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: curlyfries] #1417604
04/15/10 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by LindaR
I will need to go back to my 1st theory question (if I get to it) and see if that reply is still there-I thought it disappeared. I was/am so overwhelmed. Piano is tad out of tune blahblah. Funny. ha thumb


I still have no idea what you are saying. 1st theory question? Piano out of tune? Funny? What does any of that have to do with the OP's question?



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Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: BruceD] #1417611
04/15/10 02:07 AM
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Yes -- some work needs to be done there.
Sometimes English is harder than foreign languages. smile

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: BruceD] #1417612
04/15/10 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by LindaR
I will need to go back to my 1st theory question (if I get to it) and see if that reply is still there-I thought it disappeared. I was/am so overwhelmed. Piano is tad out of tune blahblah. Funny. ha thumb

I still have no idea what you are saying. 1st theory question? Piano out of tune? Funny? What does any of that have to do with the OP's question?

The way I took it, reading between the lines, is that it's a connection to
Originally Posted by Mark_c
BTW......what do you say about someone who asks a question, you give him a detailed answer, then he doesn't say anything....
It happens here occasionally, but not much.

It makes one reluctant to give him such answers again.

LindaR probably asked a theory question a while ago and took a long time to check for replies. I interpret LindaR's post as a very brief way of saying something along the lines of, "Oh, shoot, I hope I'm not one of those people who came across as rude or ungrateful because I didn't check promptly for answers to my first theory question all that time ago! I was and am so overwhelmed with non-piano stuff in my life at the moment, and my piano's so out of tune that I wouldn't get much joy from it even if I did have time to get back to it, hehe. Hmmm, I must check up on that old thread when I get a chance; it seemed to disappear but maybe it is around somewhere..."

(The reason I'm jumping in and offering the above theory is that I sense LindaR may be too busy to check back here again for some time.)


(Used to post as SlatterFan)
Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Julian_] #1417635
04/15/10 03:13 AM
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Great job, Slatter!!!
Looks like you're almost definitely right.

It fits. smile

Originally Posted by SlatterFan
.....(The reason I'm jumping in and offering the above theory is that I sense LindaR may be too busy to check back here again for some time.)

Humor noted. ha

Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: Mark_C] #1417939
04/15/10 01:21 PM
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Yes that is so but also...I couldn't find the post that was detailed when I went back but only checked once. And then if I was correct the time stamp is giving me different readings for the last posts here-so I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong-thus a post here! No big deal just forget it.



Re: Grace Notes in Chopin F# Minor Polonaise, Op. 44 [Re: curlyfries] #1417940
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"'Curiouser and curiouser!' cried Alice...."


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