Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum The correct way of pressing a key ?

My understanding of the anatomy of the hand and fingers is rudimentary. However, if the muscles and tendons work the way I think they do it could help us to understand what is best for playing the piano.

Each finger has 2 tendons which control the grasping motion. One tendon is attached to the middle section of the finger. The other one is attached to the end segment. By pulling on the first tendon with the appropriate muscle in my forearm I can keep my finger straight and move the whole finger up and down from the knuckle, or, I can make the finger bend at the second joint (second from the tip) while keeping the two end segments of the finger straight. I can make my finger 3 form a right angle at that joint, but I haven’t as much control over the other fingers. The beginners with stiff fingers Elissa described are using this muscle.

When I pull on the second tendon, which is attached to the end finger segment, I can only curve the whole finger. It is impossible to bend the finger at the end joint independently. When I try to do so the whole finger curves. But this tendon and its muscle seems to work easier, it seems much stronger and I also have much more control.

This second tendon and muscle is the one that does most of the work for us in our everyday lives. Grasping things, picking things up, holding things. Actually I can’t think of an occasion when I would what to use just the other tendon. I guess it probably works in a support role most of the time.

We need the maximum strength and control available to us when playing the piano. I think this means that the primary muscle and tendon we should be using is the one that is attached to the fingers' end segment, and this is the one that is going to cause our fingers to curve. This is the one we will automatically use if we think of a slight clenching action.

I think I have reached a very similar conclusion to others above, but just looking at it a bit differently can help our understanding of the forces at work.

It could also help us to explain the whys when we are establishing a good hand shape in a student.

I think the OP's question was (at least partly) inspired by the following thread, where various teaches said they could easily identify the difference in the touch of people who played solely on DPs. Two of the main differences that were noted were a restricted dynamic range (particularly at the fortissimo end) and lumpy phrasing.

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...tic%20students%20-%20Ca.html#Post1409593

It's my view that one factor contributing to those problems is that almost all people playing a DP will set the volume control so that the DP is very much quieter than an acoustic piano (for obvious reasons). This then affects how people play and also, of course, affects what people can actually hear (when the volume control is turned up all sorts of problems can be revealed which were previously masked).

Michael, another way of thinking about this is that your keyboard, because of its very limited dynamic range, masks your playing imperfections. And because it does, you cannot hear imbalances in your playing and learn to correct it. The hours of practice you put in using the keyboard cheats you out of real progress.

I don't think I'd quite agree, in terms of the fine details. I think the tendon that curls the final joint is important, but not much of a power source. I actually have some students who can bend that final joint wihtout the rest of the finger curling. Not quite sure how that works. Anyway, apparently the knuckle is operated by the lumbrical muscles (rather than tendons) that are vastly stronger. If you want the most able muscles to provide power, it makes sense to get it from here. So, I think the curling action from the fingertip is more to stabilise than anything. When grasping, I'm pretty sure it would primarily be your lumbricals operating from the knuckle- with the tendons following rather than leading the action. Apparently trying to support a heavy load primarily with the tendons that operate the following joints can lead to a lot of strain (eg if you support a bag of shopping on the mid-segment instead of on the segment next to the knuckle). So, although they are definitely important (to avoiding collapses), I don't think I'd use them too intensively. That is one of the implicit problems with using the tips as the most normal approach rather than for specific effects.

One thing I'm wondering is whether curling up the fingers with the tendons restricts the free use of the lumbricals. Try as I might, I can't get anywhere near as much action from those when my finger is curled. I feel much more power when the finger stays flatter and it all comes from the knuckle. Is there perhaps an anatomical reason for this?

Can this also be related to you going to piano from violin, where the subtleties of dynamics and articulation happen in a different hand? I am also relating a violin-fact to what you described on piano. You know that a responsive violin will do wonders in the hands of a pro, but it will also "respond" in an amateur's hands by shutting down - also a reflection of that person's touch. IF you want to learn to really play the piano, might this responsiveness of the grand not be a good thing. Otherwise you get an instrument that plays itself for you while you type in the notes, and do a bit of fiddling with louds and softs, but nothing more subtle. When I switched to a more responsive violin my sound took a nose dive. But I learned to work with the instrument, and I developed a more sensitive touch and greater awareness of the instrument. I can't help wondering if there may be some parallels.

Yes, to be honest, while I don't wish to sound like I'm saying that the person who wrote that must just be an awful pianist, but a similar thing occurred to me. My DP (A CLP370) has an absolutely miniscule range from soft to loud, compared to my battered antique upright Bluthner. Most of my students struggle to get much tone out of the Bluthner but can produce a big range easily on the DP. It's very easy to hit the maximum on those. Conversely, I've been working for a long time on my upright and I'm always learning to extract more and more tone from it. While most of my students would probably regard it as a quiet piano, I can now get a very big sound from it.

So, as I say, I don't wish to sound rude- but could it be that the poster has yet to learn the means to extract the full range out of the real instrument and control? If you're working in the mid-range, it may well seem that the power curve is wider on the digital. However, I suspect the grand is both far wider and has more audible increments between fine differences. Would Horowitz have found the widest range of dynamics on the DP?

Since I used the words "power curve", I assume you're talking about me? I mean that with the digital, as hard as I pound, it doesn't go as far--the spread is less sensitive, the curve flatter. On the real piano, it's very sensitive: a little difference in touch makes a bigger difference. This makes the digital easier to control, that's all. I don't mean that it's better, and I definitely claim to not be in control. I was only addressing why practicing on a digital is different (and not as good) as on a real piano, and why a student who's practicing on a digital won't sound the same as on a real piano: they're not learning as much control.

Your anatomy is different to mine, as I feel much less power when the finger stays flatter and it all comes from the knuckles. But then my fingers have no natural inclination for the joints to create any other shape than a gently curved shape. I've had some students whose final joint in the finger is not only not curved, but it actually bends so the finger is beyond a 180 degree plane, and it sounds like that's how your fingers might also be? Further - do you practice on any other acoustic apart from a battered upright?

Ah, my mistake. I thought you meant the opposite regarding extreme levels- where the outer extremes of the digital were further apart than what was possible on the grand. After having read one or two comments on hear, it wouldn't have vastly surprised me to hear someone suggest that. Obviously that wasn't what you meant though- so no offence intended.

I don't follow what you mean by "natural inclination". No hand naturally does that- but it's a more extreme position that serves a valuable purpose. I wouldn't call it a natural one- but neither would I call curling up thee fingers natural. Any hand that is capable of straightening the fingers (although in practise it's more a case of allowing them to be straightened as the result of the keys returning a force)- and feeling movement at the knuckle can do it.

If you are generally opposed to this motion, is it possible that you'd just need to practise it, to get it working optimally? It took me a lot of practise to get the action from the knuckles. Various hand exercises away from the piano (as well as use of a powerball and general weightlifting) have all contibuted to the ability to exploit that action. If you always seek to employ the end of the finger- could it be that you just aren't used to it. I say this because I have heard so many pianists say they use this for the most resonant and sonorous sounds but I have heard very few advise the tips for a rounded tone. What I see on films corresponds. If you don't train yourself in how to employ the action it won't offer its full potential at once. I heard that Horowitz told people that it took years to fully master this action.

There are many different ways of doing this. If seeking to channel maximum energuy from the arm I sometimes willfully straighten the finger a little and align it at about 45 degrees- to transmit the force with virtually no give in the finger (but room to follow through rather than jam the arm rigid into the bed). Ervin Nyiregyhazi used this for some of biggest sounds anyone ever got out of a piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB8RfLtVgpU

However, I don't generally collapse the end joints. If you start with a very flat horizontal finger (you can do this merely by relaxing and lowering the wrist- the key will straighten it before you actually go to strike it) and then squeeze in from every joint, then every single joint contributes positively towards squeezing the sound out- from an angle where every action is optimally aligned to travel in the plane of motion. This makes a huge and rounded cantabile sound. You see this in a lot of great pianists who have that truly special sound.

PS. This applies especially on grands. Fortunately my Bluthner upright responds to these things, although some uprights make little difference.

But why would I seek to play in this way when I have had complete ease and freedom with my current approach?

And I don't understand what you mean by saying that no hand behaves as my hand does.

Can you produce the tone or dynamic range of a pianist like Horowitz or Cortot? For me that is the primary goal and it's what I'm always looking to work towards. Unless I get there (which I'm certainly not saying I have), I'm never going to settle for what I'm doing. I'd say that this goal comes over ease and freedom, if it weren't the case that working towards a variety of different types of actions and the sounds they bring need not go against that. However, if it were only about ease and freedom then I would only ever align my hand in a neutral position. I would never curl the fingers and neither would I ever straighten them.

I didn't mean that your hand is unnatural. I meant the action of employing the muscles at the knuckle without curling the finger. In evolutionary terms the two would rarely be needed separately. However, in playing the piano there are tremendous uses to being able to work almost solely from the knuckle. If we restricted ourselves to what immediately feels natural alone, we would be heavily restricted. Sometimes you need to look beyond what immediately seems normal or natural, to extend your limits.

But this is far beyond the intent of this thread. I agree that if one seeks to create sounds like one's pianistic heroes then one will seek any number of means to achieve this end. If one wants to play the piano with ease, freedom, expression, range and so forth, effectively communicating with and through the piano without believing one has fallen short simply because one does not play like Horowitz, then one may not feel so driven to your kind of reworking of the hand action.

I am unashamed in saying that my primary purpose in playing the piano does not include matching the dynamic range of Horowitz or Cortot.

And I realise that in a forum like this is might be utter heresy to suggest that one not be fixated on being as good as Horowitz.

If you're happy as you are then that's fine- but why rule out something that has brought success for some of the greatest pianists of all time? That's all I'm puzzled by. And this is far from beyond the thread. It's both about pressing a key and something that makes very little different to the sound on a digital- and which is hence unlikely to be mastered on one. I wouldn't teach it in the first lesson (although I do use exercises away from the piano- so the students can perceive what it's like to utilise the knuckles alone from early on), but I often encourage advanced students to try these different combinations for specific sounds. I've often found that it leads to great improvement in the sound, when students understand the basics of the action. It certainly improved my own sound enormously. And it doesn't have to be phrased as a negative. I don't tell a student that they are rubbish because they don't have the tone of Horowitz. I simply show them different qualities of movement that might take them a little bit closer than if they stick to a single manner of movement. You can't progress, full stop- unless you strive for something more.

PS. Just discovered that you wrote Mozzie. Great work! Some of the jazzy pieces in the early grades have been pretty horrific before, but I've enjoyed doing that one with various students.

But I'm not advocating that your approach is wrong!! I think that if we were together at a piano we would be in incredible agreement - I think that my approach is very much from a pragmatic piano teacher perspective dealing with the kinds of problems and challenges that present in a very normal suburban piano teaching practice.... and I don't have time to post more today, but it's a very interesting discussion!

I think we'd all basically be in agreement. This is more an argument over words than substance.

It would be fascinating to see these things actually demonstrated by the posters, as it's relatively hard to picture what you mean from the verbal descriptions. Probably there would indeed be a lot of agreement if people could actually watch each other.

If any of you feel so inclined and have the time and energy, perhaps you could make short demo videos and put them on YouTube.

Elene

Back online for 5 minutes and wanted to say thanks Nyiregyhazi for the kind comments about Mozzie - I was running out the door this morning and hadn't noticed the postscript!