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If this is a new piano, I would have thought that this was a warranty matter. If it were my piano, I would want it replaced, not repaired.

I find this to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.

Russell represents some very high quality pianos and understands the warranty world very well.

I may be mistaken but I believe the last Petrof I had in the shop for repair had a solid, un-laminated bridge with a cap only at the high treble section. It also had a fair amount of small surface cracking but as it was getting a new soundboard and new bridge caps that was not a major concern. That particular piano started it's career in Taiwan then went to St Louis and then Arizona and finally Sacramento. I dare any bridge capping or soundboard to survive those humidity extremes untouched.

Here is a photo of the bridge, the higher registers but not the highest part. I don't see lamination here

There seems no bridge cap, so would that imply that these cracks will be growing over time?

While the epoxy repair may stabilize the cracks and fix the pins from moving, the repair would not be invisible and you would have a cosmetically defective piano. This will have a negative impact on the value of the piano. Potential buyers would see evidence of a repair done to an almost new piano. Add to this the fact that said repair is typically done to older pianos to extend their life before rebuilding (extrapolating here a bit from pianobroker's post) and a significant number of potential buyers will be scared away. Any time you reduce the potential pool of buyers you are negatively impacting the value.

You take enough of a depreciation hit once you bring a new piano home. Even though you may never dream of selling your piano, there is no reason to take the additional hit to its value due to this defect.

Mike make a key point. Unless there are very special circumstances we don't know about, this piano should be replaced under warranty.

That's what would happen at my store. I would "force" the manufactuer to do so.

Thanks for this explanation, yes this is an important point and I can not predict if/when I have to sell the piano.

But I can not force the manufacturer in any way at this point, as it is the dealer from which I bought the piano and he is responsible.

I am also a bit worried about using epoxy,

* epoxy is also detoriating over time and in my experience it detoriates much faster than wood.
* epoxy might fix the problem at the surface but you can't see what happened further down the crack. Did the epoxy go all the way down, can you be sure? When I fix things with epoxy I always take the parts completely apart and apply epoxy to both sides but that seems impossible here.

I would not worry about the epoxy, because your going to get another piano. This is like buying spanking new car, and there are dents all along the side. Upon delivery, you could drive it (or play the piano), but it is not in new condition and you would ask for a replacement car pure and simple.

Cracks in wood happens, but not to new pianos. Companies have been putting pins in these blocks for 200 years, and they don't crack on the showroom floor unless there is a defect of some kind, and customers don't accept defects to new equipment.

As a side note, today's glues are of outstanding quality to the glues of yesteryear. If I were to glue something together, could I expect it to hold 70 to 100 years? Absolutely. Just look as all of the wooden airplanes glued together flying around out there. The stuff works and I have no problem risking my life on pieces of wood that I have glued together.

"...I can not force the manufacturer in any way at this point, as it is the dealer from which I bought the piano and he is responsible...."

Let's say that at this point, the better approach would be to inform the dealer about the problem, in a letter, backed up by your own, independent RPT's written report, and accompanied by photographs. It would be more polite to phrase your letter in terms of a request, and to state clearly what you want (replacement), and why (to protect the value).

You might send the same letter and attachments to the manufacturer, including a photocopy of the warranty (and serial number), and your bill of sale. A brief covering note that you have just contacted the seller will help them to know at what stage the matter rests. They will want this information anyway.

Your warranty is a legal document which gives you certain rights (which can be enforced in court, if it comes to that), and it is an agreement with the manufacturer--- not the seller. The dealer will normally act as the maker's agent for warranty matters, but sometimes the distributor will act as the maker's agent, or the head office may act for themselves.

It is much more likely that they will want to do the right thing for you, and will help you to resolve the problem to your satisfaction. It's a process, of course, and they will want to have their own technician inspect also.

There are some professional whiners and outright neurotics out there, who cannot be made happy no matter what is done for their piano (because their problem lies elsewhere). From what you've said and shown, this would seem to be another kind of story; a faulty bridge on a new piano is a manufacturing problem and is clearly a warranty matter. It's unusual, and they will want to see it proved up... but that's what warranties are for.

wouter79,

If this is an older "new" petrof originally handled by GIC, you may be out of luck unless the dealer steps up to the plate.

I'm curious, since you haven't mentioned it, what does your warranty say? And your specific model? From the pictures it appears to be one of the P "roman numeral" models.

Is your warranty from the dealer, the manufacturer? Is it backed by Geneva International?



Mike

Jeff,

I thought it good to have the dealer have a look at it first and listen to his recommendation. If he recommends replacement then I do not need to hire a RPT. The more official route of sending photos to him with an RPT report and communicating with the manufacturer seems to me a second step.

I already made an appointment with the dealer, he wants to see in person.

My warranty says 5 years warranty but no further details. This is the warranty offered by the dealer. No mentioning of any backed, I suppose the next in line is the manufacturer. Model is model P IV.

Here is a pic of bridge pins of the lowest string.
Notice the small bump, did they already do some repair here?

I had a problem with a new piano... a Bechstein... and Bechstein told me that it was a problem between myself and the piano dealer where I bought it (in France)... This dealer advertised themselves as the 'Bechstein Centre' so in my opinion the reputation of Bechstein was also involved. Eventually the importer of Bechstein into France became involved ... and sorted out the problem in a very good and excellent way. I am not sure if there is some central importer of Petrof into the US ... but maybe you should get them involved if the dealer does not respond in a proper way.
But as other say get a report made by someone independent...
good luck -

OK two more pics, the g5 and g#5. Note that this is entirely different part of the bridge than the first crack

And one of the B1 and Bb1.

UPDATE

I got feedback from the technician on the first photo.
Particularly his second commend seems to differ significantly from is said here.


1) I asked him if he thinks it needs further inspection,
His reply (translation by me):

"These cracks are not necessarily a problem, but I recommend you to contact the dealer and/or manufacturer and maybe request a repair under warranty"

2) I also asked if these cracks have efect on sound, tuning stability, whether the cracks will grow etc. He wrote:

"This can not be predicted. These cracks are regularly seen in new instruments. Usually they do not form any problem soundwise etc."

wouter79,

It's always good to nail down the warrantor's responsibilities before you buy a piano. I believe the current Petrof factory warranty is five years. I don’t know why you don’t have the factory warranty card. Maybe the dealer keeps it? Anyway, you can enter your serial number on Petrof’s warranty website to see if everything matches with what the dealer has told you . . . might be good to do this before the dealer shows up . . . just to know exactly where you stand . . . there’s also an email for Petrof’s US service rep . . . I’m assuming you’re in the States . . .

I mentioned Geneva, Petrof’s former distributor, because not long ago I ran into a character selling a P II with the old ten year GIC warranty card (five year factory-five year Geneva) claiming it was transferable . . . The piano was 4 years old and he was trying to sell it new, etc. Not a bad sounding piano, but . . .



Mike

I'm going to put in my two cents worth here. The pic with the lowest note and the bulge by the pin looks to me like the wood is being displaced because the pin is moving.

The next few pictures with the cracks and the openings around one side of the pin looks like several much older pianos I have seen lately in my neck of the woods.

The wood is cracking and allowing the pin to move. This will not stop on its own. And with this happening in more than one place on the bridge it means the piano is due some very major work. Sad since it is so young. Resembles the 70 something year old "Heine" we just replaced at our church for this very reason. But it was old, had been in a very dry environment.

Your piano will become very difficult to maintain a tuning because when the tension is increased on the strings to bring it to pitch, the pins will move and allow the pitch to move. This will be very frustrating for you and your tech.

If you can, press hard for a replacement piano.

UPDATE

The dealer was here today to have a look.

Basically he denied any problems and thinks this bridge is in great shape.
He mentioned a lot of points to support this:

1. If the wood is not OK the bridge would break down within half a year and this piano is older
2. Regarding the gaps around the pins, this is because the piano tuner ticks on the pins to tighten the strings under the pins
3. What seems to be cracks are not cracks, but this is the string pushing itself into the wood because it is forced around the pins.
4. You will see the same in other pianos.
5. The bridge wood is never sanded perfectly flat to start with. I think he mentioned this considering the bumps.
6. The first four or five times the piano will de-tune quickly because of switching to a different tuner that uses different methods.
7. There is hardly any play in the pins. Only if the pins would be standing straight up (i.e. there would be a HUGE crack) then there would be an issue.
8. He got quite angry/upset (don't know which) at this whole issue. According to him the piano technicians are exaggerating this problem. Partly because they did not receive commision on this piano, partly because there are too many piano tuners with too little pianos causing low income for them, and partly because this is a chance to gain importance regarding the acquisition and judgment of a piano.
9. He asked me to point out these cracks, he did not see them apparently. After pointing one out he basically repeated above and I did not proceed pointing out the others.
10. He told me that for each technician that I bring in that confirms the problem he can bring in one that denies the problem.

He is going to ask a second opinion from one of the piano tuners that works for him.

The dealer proposed to return my money and take back the piano if I insist, as he thinks we will get into a stalemate.

I would indeed immediately insist on his final proposition and rid yourself of a defective piano and an unscrupulous dealer.

All the best!

Robert.