Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright?

Digital pianos have been around for quite some time now, certainly far longer than I have been buying and selling uprights. The last one I sold was 6 months ago.

People buy acoustic pianos because they fall in love with them. They are individual and each one has it's own distinctive character. Over on the piano forum you will hear of folks who say that their piano 'spoke to them'. It's got nothing to do with finding that perfect sound or action. That doesn't really exist.

I am afraid you can't mention technology and resale value in the same breath. Everyone knows that whatever they buy now will be worthless in years to come. We already know that the sampling technology used in the AvantGrand is on the way out. Why waste the money.

If you like the N2 then buy one second hand in a couple of years. You'll get it for nothing.

No, just that you can't separate the two. Each depends on the other. What you hear with the N2 is a recording of a grand piano which is hardly the same thing.

You can argue all you want about the sound aspect, and I would still respect your opinion. But once you've said that "the N2 action felt like that of a digital piano", I no longer respect your opinion because obviously you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're so severely biased that your skewed opinion no longer has any credibility.

You're the first and only poster I've heard on this forum who said such a thing about the N2 action. I've heard from many other posters on this forum who may still prefer the acoustic sound better, but nobody ever disputed the action of the N2 to be NOT real grand action and only like that of a DP. That's because it's a fact (not just an opinion) that it is real grand action in there.

Yes, or buy a U1 and, in a couple of years, have to pay some one to haul it away...most music stores won't carry upright pianos any more...grands will always be around, although their numbers have been, and will continue to decrease as well.

A friend of mine sold a lot of digital pianos by having one set up next to an upright.

The only advantage an upright has over a grand is that it makes a smaller carbon footprint when it burns.

Snazzy

I'm not remotely biased. It's just an observation based on years of playing the piano, both acoustics and digitals.

What exactly is it you feel that you can achieve with the N2 action that you couldn't with the action of a comparably priced Yamaha upright?

and to add a data point to the discussion on just how necessary a 'grand' action really is, check out these video of Volodos' version of the Turkish March:

played on an upright...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5bFakdpY7k

played on a clavinova cgp-1000 (which if I'm not mistaken has an NW action.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U54f_upaOaE

Here comes that usual lame double standard again of labeling DPs as "technology" just for the sake of making the "resale" argument.

First of all, you can label DPs as "technology" all you want. There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually a good thing. And yes, technology evolves and every few years newer technology comes out. But do you see people ever stop buying newer cell phones or smart phones or laptops or HD TVs or BlueRays DVDs or the latest iPad, etc? People still snap them up like candies and nobody sits back and said "Oh, I'll wait a few more years until the next best thing comes along." If you're already of that mentality, you'll never buy any "technology" item in the first place, so you're not a viable consumer to be considered so who cares about those people in the first place? We're talking about people who's ready and want to make a purchase for the latest and best thing here. The bottom line is that technology is a good thing, and its resale value is not a consideration people worry about.

And even if it were to some people, when you invoke technology for the sake of arguing the resale value, you have to compare apple to apple and not play dirty by using the double standard. And the double standard here is playing the old DP vs new DP resale argument card, while what we're really debating here DP vs AP.

If you're going to argue that the resale of a DP will be worth nothing in a few years, why don't you also come out and say that this is because people will want to buy A NEW DP, and not because they want to buy a new acoustic, much less an acoustic upright? So what does this have to do with the DP vs AP debate? It's funny because the only thing you're confirming here unwittingly is that the more desirable product a few years from now IS GOING TO BE the newer DP. If it's not today's DP, it's sure as heck is not going to be today's acoustic upright either.

Not sure why you have to ask about this since you're a piano teacher. I've heard many piano teachers recommend their students to move to a grand from an upright when they get advanced enough because it's a universally accepted opinion that the grand action is superior to the upright action.

But if you have to ask anyway, maybe as a test, it's because of the fact that the hammers on the grand action are horizontally aligned, so they can return to their rest position faster and naturally by gravity (without needing spring mechanism to force this to happen as in the upright). This enables the design of the double escapement mechanism on the grand piano to allow faster repetition of notes without having to fully releasing the keys.

And although your question is specifically about the N2 action, I gave you an answer for acoustic grand action in general, because the N2 has the acoustic grand action. So it's not just specific to the N2. If one agrees that acoustic grand action is better than acoustic upright action in general, then by default, the N2 is better because it has the grand action.

re: Dewster +1

snazzy and Volusiano, I agree with you, but can understand where ChrisH is coming from. When playing a DP we're always playing a recording of a piano. When listened to thru studio-quality 'phones - or perhaps a great sound system - that can be an enjoyable experience; but it's not the same thing as playing the actual piano. For ChrisH, this is an unsurmountable barrier.

This issue, IMO, is not resolvable. If people don't like something which isn't completely genuine, there's nothing which can be done about it.

.

To some people, pure acoustic sound is everything, and I totally respect that. But to many others, sound is only part of the equation and many other things are very important, too. Otherwise, the OP would have not bothered with his question here, and instead would have just gone straight to the (acoustic) Piano forum and asked for suggestion on which acoustic piano to buy.

So the heart of the DP vs AP debate is not about sound alone. It's about why, even at the expense of having not as good the sound, it's still an attractive option to people to make them want to consider the DP. And on top of that, a newer emerging question is when is the DP going to become "good enough" to be a viable alternative to the AP? And more specifically here, to the upright AP.

So with these questions in mind, I'd have to say that Yamaha has finally delivered a viable alternative in the N2 as a serious contender to acoustic uprights in its price range. It trumps the acoustic upright on almost everything, except maybe for sound. It's simple as that.

So the only question is what is more important to the OP? Sound and sound only? Or everything else (with pretty decent sound, mind you, just not the ultimate sound)?

And if people say "Oh, the N2 is way overpriced and expensive for what it can deliver as a DP". I'd say "Really? And $15K acoustic uprights are not expensive, too?" As least we know future DPs can only go down in price and only get better. Can the same be said about upright AP? Last I heard, people were worried about acoustic price increases coming up in the year.

And if people want to wait for a better/cheaper DP, more power to them and wait. Wait 3 to 5 years. Then wait 3 to 5 more years if you want. At least they have that option. Just don't use that as an excuse to buy an acoustic today. Buy an acoustic today because you want to buy an acoustic. Not because you're afraid that technology will always get better and cheaper and you don't want to be cheated by technology. How are you ever going to be cheated by something that you never plan to wait around to reap its benefits in the first place? You'd only be cheating yourself for using that excuse.

+1

Those who say that they would prefer for an acoustic-piano like playing experience a digital to any upright have probably not played a really nice upright from Grotrian, Seiler, Steingraeber, etc.

Volusiano, you are completely missing the point in every way.

On resale value: Of course that won't stop people buying technology, I never said that. I was just pointing out that changes in technology render old tech obsolete in no time at all. This means that anything older than a few years becomes worthless. In contrast the acoustic piano has not changed all that much. A 30 or 40 year old acoustic (upright or grand) will still fetch good money as long as it has been looked after and will continue to play perfectly well for years to come. Don't take my word for it, just take a look on ebay.

The grand like action seems to me to be nothing more than a gimmick. What's it for? You are playing a digital piano so why do you need the action of an acoustic piano? The piano action is a complicated thing with many moving parts. It's built the way it is because you need to be able to strike real strings with real hammers. It's not perfect on either a grand or an upright, it's just necessary. You could argue that the action of a regular DP is far superior because you can do away with all those parts.

The point about action is that it is used to control the sound. When I play any acoustic piano I will use the action to make it sing, roar, weep, sparkle etc. I can repond to the sound with subtle changes in touch. That's what music is all about, not repeating notes as fast as possible. The only time I really think about action is if it stops me doing what I want with the sound or if there is somethng wrong with it. This only happens on old pieces of junk which are as likely to be grands as uprights.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and here is mine on the original question:

It all depends on what you want to do with your piano.

If you have neigbours who would be disturbed by your piano playing then buy the N2.
If you spend most of your practice time playing silently through the night then buy the N2.
If you intend to record everything you play then buy the N2.
If you are a sucker for the latest tech and want to impress your mates with space age looks then buy the N2.

Of course you can do all this with a much cheaper DP.

If on the other hand you simply want to enjoy making music at the piano then buy a YUS3 (which I assume is around the same price as the N2).

Or...do all of the above and buy a YUS 3SG hybrid silent piano...which is a about a 1000 euros more expensive than the N2.
However, when you consider that you are getting an entire top of the line acoustic piano in addition to the digital functions for only 1000 euros then you realize what an incredibly good value it is in comparison to the very overpriced N2.

Or you could do what I've done - I have an acoustic upright piano AND a digital piano.

I've never understood why so many people think it's an either or question. I'm happy to put up with the issues that come with both so I can have the advantages of both.

Same here.

Yes I agree but why would someone with this mind set want to contribute to this particular forum? I mean if your starting position is that DPs are not a worthy means of expressing yourself musically it is just mischief to be on here stimulating artificial debate because there is nothing that will ever persuade him.

Steve

EssBrace, I assume you are talking about me?

If this forum is all about the virtues of DP's then what's the point in the original question?

Someone asked:

'Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright?'

For me the answer is very clear, I would choose the upright anytime. That doesn't mean I have anything against DP's. I own a DP and it has been extremely useful over the years. IMO Yamaha should focus on making great DP's and great acoustics rather than trying to merge the two.