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What is your opinion on Horowitz and his interpretations of Mozart's various works for piano?
Personally, I find his use of rubato a little too great for Mozart. I love his playing of the Romantic repetoire, but I find he changes the tempo a little too much in classical works. But, that's just my opinion. In Mozart's K330 sonata for example:
Maybe, but virtually everyone else does too little. Mozart was very specific about the fact that the hands should not always be played in time with each other. Horowitz and Cortot are two of the only pianists who actually obey that. Virtually every other pianist ignores it outright.
Maybe, but virtually everyone else does too little. Mozart was very specific about the fact that the hands should not always be played in time with each other. Horowitz and Cortot are two of the only pianists who actually obey that. Virtually every other pianist ignores it outright.
I agree. I typically find Mozart boring for the same reason, but H. and C. really bring the music to life in a way few others can.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Maybe, but virtually everyone else does too little. Mozart was very specific about the fact that the hands should not always be played in time with each other. Horowitz and Cortot are two of the only pianists who actually obey that. Virtually every other pianist ignores it outright.
Outside of one letter (to his father I believe?) do you know of any other indications that Mozart was an advocate of rubato?
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
I don't recall the exact details, but it's from a volume of his letters. However, he was rather specific on the left hand being stricter, while the right hand moves freely on either side. It makes it pretty clear that the modern idea about what is too romantic is based on very dubious grounds. Even one letter is enough to be clear that there's absolutely no question that he was hoping for the hands to be played squarely together at all times, or that he was offended by anything else.
I don't recall the exact details, but it's from a volume of his letters. However, he was rather specific on the left hand being stricter, while the right hand moves freely on either side. It makes it pretty clear that the modern idea about what is too romantic is based on very dubious grounds. Even one letter is enough to be clear that there's absolutely no question that he was hoping for the hands to be played squarely together at all times, or that he was offended by anything else.
I can't remember the letter exactly either, but do recall that he said something to the effect that "they are amazed that I play strictly in time. They can't grasp that in an Adagio the left hand goes on (unperturbed?) while with them the left hand follows the right." I think that's somewhat close, but it's been a while since I've read my volume of letters and my right eye today is killing me (allergies, I think...beside the point). At any rate, it's clear that he did advocate the use of rubato in works with slower tempi.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
It was October 24, 1777 in a letter to his father. Chopin later mentions and paraphrases the letter.
Mozart also said in other instances that it was important to keep good time, but that is common sense. He was not advocating using rubato on everything...
Wow - I guess I'm the only one who find's Horowitz's Mozart appalling. Rubato? To me it's insufferably annoying distortion. I much prefer Barenboim for the Sonatas - elegant, tasteful, beautifully nuanced and proportioned (although he does have one odd sudden quickening of tempo in the beginning of 330 that I find annoying...). Guess everyone has their own taste...
Wow - I guess I'm the only one who find's Horowitz's Mozart appalling. Rubato? To me it's insufferably annoying distortion. I much prefer Barenboim for the Sonatas - elegant, tasteful, beautifully nuanced and proportioned (although he does have one odd sudden quickening of tempo in the beginning of 330 that I find annoying...). Guess everyone has their own taste...
You're not alone. I'm not crazy about Horowitz' Mozart, but, at the same time I don't find it appalling. His Beethoven on the other hand...we'll leave that for another discussion. I'm not very familiar with Barenboim's Mozart, but he is an excellent pianist (I really don't understand much of the negative reaction to him). For Mozart my ideal is de Larrocha, Schiff, and Perahia.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
Harold Schonberg said that Horowitz' style of playing Mozart may actually be closer to the composer's intentions than the more rigid and literal approaches of so-called Mozart specialists. Horowitz does take some liberties. For example, in the youtube clip that the OP posted, at 0:25, Horowitz connects the descending E, D, C, B in the left hand, although Mozart marked it as staccatto in the score. I know one pianist who believes that Horowitz was wrong, since Mozart clearly wanted that passage to be detached.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7ao Bach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
I don't have many issues with the way Horowitz plays - I've given up expecting to hear Mozart and Beethoven. When someone listens to Horowitz, they go to hear Horowitz - not Mozart.
Professor Anthon E. Darling, courtesy of David E. Walden, mirrors my thoughts exactly on most famous pianists - but Horowitz in particular:
"Horowitz's interior dialogue ran something like this: 'Remember Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata? Well, here's Vladimir's version of it! Isn't it amazing what I'm doing? Did you believe how I played that last motif? Who could imagine what heights I could reach using Beethoven as my launching pad?' "
Harold Schonberg said that Horowitz' style of playing Mozart may actually be closer to the composer's intentions than the more rigid and literal approaches of so-called Mozart specialists. Horowitz does take some liberties. For example, in the youtube clip that the OP posted, at 0:25, Horowitz connects the descending E, D, C, B in the left hand, although Mozart marked it as staccatto in the score. I know one pianist who believes that Horowitz was wrong, since Mozart clearly wanted that passage to be detached.
Heh - he appears to get them backwards! Maybe he just forgot (hard to imagine, but maybe). The edition I'm looking at has staccato for the first descent, non-staccato for the 2nd descent (Horowitz plays them non-staccato for 1st descent, staccato for 2nd descent!) - at the return near the end of the first movement they are both listed as non-staccato.
I'm not an advocate of standardizing phrasing at re-occurences 100% of the time, when someone feels it is unclear - it's quite possible the composer intended entirely different phrasings for each succesive instance of the theme to help set them apart or add color. Perhaps this was Horowitz's manner of grappling with a supposed question of standardization. Or maybe it's just Horowitz the diva. I don't know. Interesting, though!
Rightly said those who advocate no rubato outside of adagios. It's a matter of 18th century taste. The place to look for Mozart's thoughts is in his dad's violin tutor. There dad says the accompanist shouldn't slow down for the soloist's rubato or it will ruin the effect - and again he's only talking about adagio.
"Horowitz's interior dialogue ran something like this: 'Remember Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata? Well, here's Vladimir's version of it! Isn't it amazing what I'm doing? Did you believe how I played that last motif? Who could imagine what heights I could reach using Beethoven as my launching pad?' "
Most artists harbour delusions of grandeur. At least Horowitz's were well-founded.
Rightly said those who advocate no rubato outside of adagios. It's a matter of 18th century taste. The place to look for Mozart's thoughts is in his dad's violin tutor. There dad says the accompanist shouldn't slow down for the soloist's rubato or it will ruin the effect - and again he's only talking about adagio.
Care to list a quote that insists on square regularity outside of Adagios? Or that specifies that the hands must never do anything other than coincide? Once you have established that freedoms are not banned as a rule, I should like to see firm evidence that they are not permissable to any degree in anything other than Adagios, if I am to believe it. Also, Mozart's Dad's violin tutor? Are you kidding? Mozart himself spoke of how surprised his contemporaries were by his use of rubato. So why should his musical grandfather's dated old conventions be of the slightest relevance? If Mozart banned freedoms two generations down from this unnamed old codger, please provide the evidence...
Care to list a quote that insists on square regularity outside of Adagios? ... Also, Mozart's Dad's violin tutor? ... If Mozart banned freedoms two generations down from this unnamed old codger, please provide the evidence...
You really are ignorant aren't cha? Leopold Mozart's violin tutor THAT HE WROTE i.e. A BOOK was the top violin tutor long after both were dead. Mozart in the letter home is merely confirming his practice coincides with dad's. Both only mention 'stolen time' in reference to adagio. If you wish to assume rubato in any tempo you'll need to supply references.
"Horowitz's interior dialogue ran something like this: 'Remember Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata? Well, here's Vladimir's version of it! Isn't it amazing what I'm doing? Did you believe how I played that last motif? Who could imagine what heights I could reach using Beethoven as my launching pad?' "
Most artists harbour delusions of grandeur. At least Horowitz's were well-founded.
Definately - he was able to play wonderfully - thus we forgive him hee hee.
Most artists harbour delusions of grandeur. At least Horowitz's were well-founded.