Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner mental practice

I'd call it raising evident holes in your argument. Feel free to return to the topic and fill in those holes. I'm not going to be drawn in by your attempt to change the topic, thankyou.

A piece that's securely memorized requires visual memory of the score, auditory memory of the sound, cognitive memory of the harmonic changes, and muscle memory of the touch and fingering. But sometimes the latter can seemingly make the others unnecessary during practice... until you're on stage, your mind is blank and you don't even know what the first note is. Simply practicing the piece with consistent fingering will ensure that the muscle memory develops. But careful work, sometimes away from the piano, needs to be done to make sure that you actually know the piece if you want a good chance of performing it well.

Agreed. It's only one part. The point I was raising is that muscle memory must not be "avoided", in any sense of the word. That would be a deeply flawed mindset to carry. Muscle memory is the absolute foundation of learning- otherwise none of us would ever have cause to do any practise at a keyboard. The fact that other aspects should also be trained does not mean that it should ever be advisable to avoid it. You need to ADD to it, not seek to prevent it. Mental practise that visualizes fingering trains muscle memory just the same as it trains mental understanding.

Yeah, muscle memory is important. Being able to play large skips without looking, for example. I suspect that highly advanced pianists may be able to build muscle memory even away from the piano based on their past experience with the keyboard. Not sure, because I've never tried this myself. I did cram one violin piece entirely away from the instrument, but the violin is very different from the piano...and it wasn't a very hard piece.

Yeah, I think that's precisely the mistake kbk has made. To visualize the physical means is to train muscle memory, whether you try it at a keyboard or not. Only pure pitch based visualization, with absolutely no visualization of physical means, can reasonably be viewed as standing as an alternative to training muscle memory. If you really want to build a complete alternative, it would make good sense to do mental practise with no thought of physical means at all (especially not fingering), before seeking to improvise the means from scratch at a keyboard. A real genius can do this- hence those who really can flip their hands over and play a piece just the same. I heard that Fiorentino could do this with any Bach fugue. However, what most of us can do is to associate muscle memory with more conscious processes. For anything less than a genius, it's about developing the right associations and has nothing to do with avoiding muscle memory. If couldn't happily reverse your hands, muscle memory is the single thing that most allows you to reach your highest standards. That's not an enemy. However, if you did want to escape it outright, thinking about fingering is not the way to go (in fact, doing would make it a polar opposite to avoiding development of muscle memory, as that is precisely what will be trained). You'd need to think only about pitch, if you really want to break away.

My teacher told me of Gabrilowitsch pacing up and down with the score and that much of his practice was down mentally. Another teacher told me that I should be able to write out the score while another wrote one time 'Exhaust the printed page.' So, studying the score and examining it for every detail is most important. However, another teacher told me one time that muscle memory would often get one through mental lapses during performance so it is a combination of mental, visual, auditory, physical in appropriate combination that would work favorably for the performer. There are stories of Dohnanyi (and others) being given a score and studying it on a train or before a concert (minus a keyboard)and then performing it during the program.

Initially or?

I find it extremely helpful, after learning something, to memorize the LH alone. I've noticed that most memory slips with people happen because of the left hand, and it's often what we're so uncertain of. If the LH is memorized.. heck you won't even be nervous!

Try playing an entire program just with the LH..

When a piece is memorized it's worthwhile going over just the one hand to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory.

Any of it? Surely that's impossible? Muscle memory is not all bad..

???

If you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory then you will not be able to play it with any more confidence than the first time you atempt it. If you want a backup plan, practising it from memory with one finger (or visualizing the notes without thought of physical means) is a sure way to check that you know it by memory without recourse to muscle memory. However, if you think that means you are not using any muscle memory, you have a definably inaccurate picture of what goes on.

Having seen you struggle on your films with a score in front of you, I'm afraid I'm finding it hard to believe that you are one of the rare geniuses who has no need for muscle memory in order to play a relatively advanced piece with true confidence for the first time. In fact, my professional assessment would be that this is one of the things that you need to cultivate substantially more in order to progress (perhaps to the point where you could put the scores away, instead of merely claiming to do so with every piece you learn). I can easily see how you would struggle to play a piece by memory based on muscle memory alone, as your manner of movement is very inconsistent and disjointed.

Who said prevent it? Certainly wasn't me. You just have to twist words doncha?

And where did I say it wasn't? What you will be gaining, by avoiding it at all costs, is a far truer, purer muscle memory. You train the motor nerves without full and disturbing innervation.

no I don't. You said that muscle memory should be avoided at all costs (contradicting yourself at the same time by talking about how vital is it to visualize the right fingering- ie to train muscle memory). Please quit this tedious (not to mention failed) attempt at pedantry and stick to the topic, if you have any genuine interest in it.

Who said prevent it?

So by avoiding "muscle memory" at all costs, you will be gaining a truer "muscle memory". Thankyou for the explanation. That really clears up what was evidently not a logical contradiction after all...

How can you possibly avoid muscle memory?

Yes, that is indeed the point I am making. Congratulations if you are begining to understnad that. toMore to the point, how can any rational person SUGGEST avoiding muscle memory? Try reading back over your posts. They are stored in this thread, do you know? Have you really got nothing better to do than write this nonsense and then try to claim that you never said it in the first place, when someone picks out all the ludicrously transparent holes in it- and then pretend that you were the one making the sensible point in the first place, rather than the polar opposite of it?

Where did I say you can avoid muscle memory? Words in my mouth again!

"You want to avoid anything that encourages muscle memory."

"It's the only way to defeat performance anxiety (by avoiding muscle memory at all costs)."

"When a piece is memorized it's worthwhile going over just the one hand to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory."

Perhaps you might want to stop and monitor some of what comes out of your mouth? Please stop wasting everybody's time. Some people are interested in discussing the issues, without this tedious nonsense. If you have any interest, then stop making such futile attempts at pedantry and deal with these gaping holes in your comments. If you are so keen to portray yourself as a wise man, try behaving wisely enough to admit when you are so clearly wrong, so the discussion can progress.

These are all instructions. Can't you tell the difference between suggesting someone do something and the actual outcome? Actually, I think you can't. You're blinded by your flame rage!