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After having had a few glasses of wine, I find your reply with some miscalculations and apparantly not knowing about small % differences in general electronics prices between The Netherlands and Germany quite amusing. Let's all move to Germany for the best price & service, Kawai Europe is located there anyway Good night

I completely disagree.

If anyone is reading this forum with a view to buying a digital piano please do not take statements like this on face value. Play them yourself.

Are you disagreeing that a few Roland owners and some other Kawai owners on this forum have found the Kawai action to feel better or are you disagreeing based on your personal preference? So far I have seen more people favoring the Kawai action than the Roland action on this forum. From this I gathered that the Kawai action is liked more generally. That of course does not exclude the possibility that there exist individuals that hate the Kawai action and love the Roland action. But you are right in saying that one needs to play both before deciding what to buy. I don't think anyone will dispute that.

Well, I guess there is not such a thing as a "general agreement" on such subjective matters like keyboard action.

I would dare to say that the majority of piano players might prefer the KAWAI action, but again this might be completely different from player to player, based on their specific experience and instruments they played in the past. There are even players that prefer unweighted keyboard action, although quite rare. Some with no acoustic piano experience might also prefer a specific action that is only possible with digital pianos (e.g. not graded, whatever).

So yes, what is definitely general agreement is that you need to play a broad variety of different DP brands in order to build an opinion on your own preference and then buy what you like most and what is in your budget (which is not always the same).

I for myself like the KAWAI action a lot and prefer it definitely over Roland PHA III action.

Hi there,

I'm disagreeing based on my own personal preference, and the specific comparison between the pianos and a acoustic grand piano.

I have no idea whether it is true or not that the majority of people on this forum who have tried both pianos say they prefer the Kawai. Even so, my opinion is so extreme on this that it wouldn't matter if I was in a minority of 1%, I would still believe my own fingers / arms / feet / ears.


Clearly I match that profile! I'm aware that I have the viewpoint of someone who plays classical piano on acoustic grand pianos and requires a digital that offers the best approximation of the acoustic touch and sound. Perhaps not everyone wants the same, and even if they do want the same and prefer the CA93 that's up to them.

I'm just trying to urge people (particularly novices) not to assume the Kawai's action is 'better' because of the received wisdom of a forum. As we all agree, they should try them both if they have the chance.

Well, pb71, I think we all agree that keyboard action is mainly a personal taste issue. But your arguments are more like "I'm a classical piano player and therefore like the real acoustic grand piano action, and I'm very extreme in this opinion" and this is something I really have problems with. The rationale: It seems like you don't consider other people's opinions, and that's always not the best way to go...

Could you provide us some more details on why you prefer the Roland action, maybe that would help.

Where have I failed to consider other peoples' opinions? Perhaps you missed or misread the part where I said (bold highlight added for clarity):


I think that's fairly clear. Nothing I have written on this is imposing my own specific requirements on people, just expressing my own opinions. You (and probably many others) clearly take a different but equally-strong view to mine. That's fine. In contrast your opinion causes me absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Of course it all comes down to personal preference, and while that is obvious I have been careful to state it explicitly in any case. If I am strong in my own opinion it does not logically follow that I don't consider other people's opinions or requirements. I'm sure the CA93 is more suited to other peoples' purposes, and that's great. I'm genuinely pleased for them / you.


Help what? I posted a detailed comparison a few weeks back, a post to which you in fact replied. To refresh your memory here is a link, with the name of the link chosen as considerately as I can:
My comparison of the Roland and Kawai keyboard actions based solely on my individual requirements

Good luck with your Kawai and all the best with it.

@pb71, I think kawaian's problem with your posts is that they read a little bit like this:

> People prefering the Kawai action are obviously not
> looking for an action which is similar to a real
> acoustic grand piano action.

You didn't explicitly say that, but your posts sound like that. So the question is: Is that really your point of view? Because if it is, you are dismissing the opinion of other people who think that the Kawai action is nearer to a real acoustic grand compared to a Roland action.

I think most people are looking for an action which is near to an acoustic grand piano. You seem to think that you're extreme in that case, but I rather think that most people share your want. The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.

Different people base their opinions on different things. My opinion based on the demonstrable differences I noticed between the action of the Kawai and a grand piano (repetition etc), with these differences being less evident on a Roland.

Presumably others have played them both and thought "the Kawai is better because of XYZ". I cannot speculate what "XYZ" is, but only (constantly) spell out the specifics of why I came to my own opinion in case it is of use to anyone else who wants the same.

I'm not intending to dismiss anyone's point of view, just explaining my own.



If some people say Kawai is nearer, then they have formed that opinion for other reasons than me, and that is fine. The Roland certainly isn't perfect.

I mitigated my views with my requirements not to "dismiss the opinions of others" rather to put them into context. This was primarily to assist potential buyers and warn them not to take statements on a forum at face value without trying pianos themselves.

Apologies if I've upset any Kawai owners, my intention was to contribute useful information to potential digital piano owners.

I'm quitting this thread now, as I'm sure you're all tired of reading what I'm increasingly tired of having to repeat. Enjoy whatever piano you have and all the best to you.

I would think most average people (like me ;-) dont have real experience with a real grandpiano and dont know exactly how it feels.

Just some rethoric questions: ;-)


From Theory an acoustic piano feels different when the damper is depressed.
Could it be true that Roland feels like a grand without having the damper depressed and Kawai feels like a grand where the damper is depressed ?
What is better and more natural? ;-)

I personally believe, because a digital has several disadvantages compared to an acoustic, it should at least be allowed to have the small advantage that it doesnt need a mechanical damper, and so it should always feel as light as an acoustic that has the damper depressed.
;-)

I have not much experience with Roland, because their action is noisy I avoided them.
But in comparison to Yamaha it should be noted, that the Kawai mechanism can reach the same repetition rate without 3rd Sensor, because the hammer can move independently from the key, proposed, that it is properly adjusted.
So far I found, the RM3 really allows for repetition without releasing the key fully. It does -so far I know- not allow repetition without intermediate damping. But who does really do that? I do not. Does classical literature request this playing technique? Had Beethoven's, Bach's or Schumann's pianos such a mechanism? I believe in most actual playing situations the difference is not audible. And if the release time is increased -eg. by pressing the pedal partially- the effect should be very much the same.

There is another point: Fast repetition, but with low volume.
That is another thing that should be possible. So far I know, Yamaha needs the 3rd sensor for this. With the kawai mechanism this /should/ be possible without 3rd sensor. Ok I would prefer to really try it rather tham making theorys about it, but the opportunities where I can really try and compare it are very rare.


So I think the practical applications for a repetition mechanism are rare on an acoustic and because a digital repeats faster by design, it would not necessarily need 3 sensors. However, I also cannot see, why it should need a repetition lever simulation like at the CA93.


Of course it would be ideal, if Kawai woul not measure the hammer speed using two sensors, but if they would measure the true hammer impact. This would give optimal repetition. However there are additional questions to solve: How would you play organ or violin or cembalo, using such a keyboard?


Peter

Is the CA63/93's action based on the movements of the acoustic Millennium III Action? Does anyone know if Kawai was trying to mimic or copy the touch of the Millennium III Action when designing the RM3 Grand action? Seems logical the Millennium III Action was their target and that is an action I quite liked so far at the stores. Sadly CA63/93 are a bit thin on the ground here in Canada at the moment to try as a demo on the floor.

Complete newbie to the digital piano world. I am used to playing a grand and need a silent digital (ie headphoned) for evening practise. Not bothered about the sound since I do have an acoustic - it's all about the action. Which models of digital pianos use an actual hammer action using a gravity return hammer? I know the Kawai CA93/63 do, as do the Yamaha AvantGrand. Are there any other makes? Do Roland do one (does the HP307 use an actual gravity return hammer?). Thanks very much.

Technocube, I would say that every action, available in premium digital pianos, uses gravity to return the hammer. The difference lies in the construction of these actions, here we can see that different manufacturers use different solutions. Mainly one can say that Roland and Yamaha share the same principle, a weight lifted below the key when pressing it down. KAWAI has chosen another technique, a hammer that is thrown away from the key. If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me.

Sometimes such blind praise actually undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. All three have great actions and you will not find any consensus beyond that. It's fine to have a preference but to dismiss the efforts of the other two makers is rather crass.

Steve

Well, EssBrace, let's be logical: I don't think that praise like that undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. Otherwise they would not be intelligent, because why should an intelligent observer be influenced by a "blind praise", as you phrase it? If that would be the case they would no longer be intelligent...

EssBrace, if it's crass or not to give advice for a potential buyer, when he or she requests it, doesn't concern me. However I hope that I have helped Technocube in his decision, and it's not a secret that I recommend KAWAI before the other brands on the market. I had a Roland before I got the KAWAI and I have played on Yamaha's for a very long time, I would therefore say that my opinion is quite rooted.

kawaian, I agree with you, good comment

My point is that if the instrument appeals so strongly, to the exclusion of anything else, to someone so unable to see value or quality in anything else, then the instrument has less appeal to any intelligent, well informed buyer. I would rather buy a piano that has been intelligently critiqued, where its weaker areas are identified and acknowledged, than one that has been indiscriminately praised. More specifically Andree's recommendation of it, so absolute and unquestioning, undermines the instrument in my opinion.

I don't really want to make this about Andree or the Kawai. My point is a general one and it is that any emphatic and unqualified praise about any DP is unconvincing to an intelligent observer. Because all DPs have significant flaws and to fail to recognise that does the instrument no favours.

Steve

That's why I was never tempted to have my user name include the name of a manufacturer.

It sort of says right up front, that the company totally owns me, whereas, by buying their product, I would only own a teensy tiny itsy bitsy piece of the company.

Kind of makes me wonder about any recommendations by such a person, who is so willingly owned by a manufacturer.

It's almost as bad as signatures that make religious statements.

I don't usually have any problem with over-zealous supporters...like a friend of mine used to say about digital pianos, "We all know what sound we want to hear coming out of our speakers."

It's a personal choice, but at least recognize that your own choice isn't the "only choice"...it's just "your choice."

Snazzy

EssBrace, with all respect I have to disagree with you and I can't understand your way of thinking.

Before I say something more I would like to highlight an important aspect. When reading your critic it seems that you believe I have written something which is "right" in relation to other opinions. However I think you have missed the last sentence in the post you are criticizing. Read it again and focus on the last three words "If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me".

As I said before I have played other DP:s before I fell in love with the KAWAI. If you had read my other posts about KAWAI you would also have seen another part of this with a lot of critiques given too. What you have read in this thread is just the conclusion after handling also the negative parts of KAWAI, a conclusion with the following content: KAWAI (CA93/63) is the most affordable digital piano on the market with the best quality and keyboard action available IF YOU ASK ME.

If you not agree with me you are welcome to share your love of both Roland and Yamaha.

Interesting, Snazzy, that you're making this comment, since you're known to be a Yamaha, err, fanboy might me not quite right, but at least a very strong supporter, only that you don't have it in your name. I see nothing wrong with that. My name only states what brand of DP I own (I don't have several of them), and of course I bought it for a reason. You should also know all my other posts since you are a regular reader of this forum, so you should know that I have detected and made public a lot of flaws of the CA63, so I hope you don't accuse me of being an uncritical fan of KAWAI...