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diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? #1403350
03/25/10 08:05 AM
03/25/10 08:05 AM
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Skunkfunk9 Offline OP
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Does anyone know the difficulty rating of the 3rd movement to Beethoven's appassionata. What about the 5 criteria of

Category 1 : independence and flexibility of fingers
Category 2 : passing of the thumb, scales, arpeggios
Category 3 : double notes and polyphonic voicing
Category 4 : stretches
Category 5 : wrist technique and chord playing


Thanks.

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Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403352
03/25/10 08:10 AM
03/25/10 08:10 AM
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Not gonna do all that, but I'm glad to just tell you it's very very difficult. smile

As I glanced over that stuff, I saw "wrist technique," and yes indeed there's some of that, particularly with those right hand chords at the start of the coda.

But I'm not sure why you'd want a breakdown like all that.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Mark_C] #1403359
03/25/10 08:21 AM
03/25/10 08:21 AM
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Skunkfunk9 Offline OP
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I'm trying to teach myself how to play it and thought it may be useful to know specifically what I should be thinking about, since I'm not really formally trained in classical piano(I'm a jazz sax player), and am not sure if my technique is good or not.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403361
03/25/10 08:24 AM
03/25/10 08:24 AM
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Skunkfunk9 Offline OP
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I've played alot of the easier one's, opus 49 #2, the first two movements to pathetique, and the first to moonlight, mvt. 3 to the tempest, and thought I'd try to learn one further down the list.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403381
03/25/10 08:46 AM
03/25/10 08:46 AM
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Bart Kinlein Offline
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That's an extremely difficult movement (and the entire sonata, for that matter). Unless you're a very advanced pianist, I think you'll suffer lots of frustration and anxiety attempting to learn it.

Been there, done that (although nothing as challenging as App mvmt 3!)


Steinway 1905 model A, rebuild started 2008, completed 2012
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Will somone get my wife off the Steinway so I can play it!
Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Bart Kinlein] #1403443
03/25/10 10:24 AM
03/25/10 10:24 AM
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Westford, MA
the nosy ape Offline
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There is not a lot of polyphonic voicing and no big stretches. It is very demanding of the other things you list.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: the nosy ape] #1403448
03/25/10 10:35 AM
03/25/10 10:35 AM
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Omaha, Nebraska
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Is this the Allegro ma non troppo? If so I am taking it on right now!

The scales seem to be pretty organized (well its beethoven of course it is!) and flow well so Im going to run it a few times to see how it goes for me.


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Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1403483
03/25/10 11:33 AM
03/25/10 11:33 AM
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Delaware (slower/lower)
Ralph Offline
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WARNING: Sax players should not attempt this piece! Proceed at your own risk. We are not responsible for physical and emotional trauma as a result.

It would be safer to negotiate a minefield in bare feet than play that movement successfully without a teacher, formal training and a lot of practice time.


Sorry, forgot to mention genius level talent would come in handy.

Last edited by Ralph; 03/25/10 12:13 PM.

Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1403484
03/25/10 11:37 AM
03/25/10 11:37 AM
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New York City
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This is one of those pieces where if you have to ask, it's probably too hard. You need to have some other Beethoven under your belt before you try this one.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Ralph] #1403489
03/25/10 11:40 AM
03/25/10 11:40 AM
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Inlanding Offline
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It's a pure masterpiece.

Watch Valentina Lisitsa play it...jaw dropping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o3eiEHmJUA


Glen


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Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Inlanding] #1403526
03/25/10 12:30 PM
03/25/10 12:30 PM
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Skunkfunk9 Offline OP
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Yea, i've heard it. It's incredible.

I've been working on this for about a month and am struggling seeing as how i'm not a pianist. what fingering is the easiest for the opening theme in f minor? I've been using 123232123212342, but the leap to the C is really risky. Anything easier. Should I be using the same fingering everytime this theme comes back in different keys?

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403535
03/25/10 12:55 PM
03/25/10 12:55 PM
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Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted by Skunkfunk9
Yea, i've heard it. It's incredible.

I've been working on this for about a month and am struggling seeing as how i'm not a pianist. what fingering is the easiest for the opening theme in f minor? I've been using 123232123212342, but the leap to the C is really risky. Anything easier. Should I be using the same fingering everytime this theme comes back in different keys?


Your fingering is unecesarrily complex - look at the chords that are being arpeggiated in the theme and approach as you would if you were to play the chord. You may be substituting this fingering because your 5th finger is not strong? Try 1, 2, 3, 5, 3 (C, F, Aflat, C, DFlat). I assume you're talking about measure 20 of the Allegro ma non troppo?

Anyways, the most natural approach is the best here - it helps if you have large hands. Otherwise strange fingering is required and to be quite honest with you - it's hard to pull this Sonata off as intended if your phrasing is not very good because of strange finger substitutions. There are some people who can do it, but it's difficult and tends to break up the meoldic line.

My personal advice to you is that if you are having an extreme amount of difficulty with the theme starting in measure 20, you could benefit from letting the piece alone for a while and concentrating on some pieces or etudes that will help you play it with less effort. As other posters have said - this is a difficult piece, and straining at it will not produce satisfactory results. You will probably practice and practice and still it will elude you, and just might leave a bad taste in your mouth or hurt your self-esteem. That can very easily happen when we hear a piece for the first time and rush out to conquer it for ourselves.

But it's still admirable that you're attempting it - and I say go for it! You can learn a lot this way - smile
It may not come out perfect, but it will be a good learning experience.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403538
03/25/10 12:58 PM
03/25/10 12:58 PM
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vertigo Offline
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Originally Posted by Skunkfunk9
I've been working on this for about a month and am struggling

Originally Posted by Skunkfunk9
i'm not a pianist.


Now i'm no Sherlock Holmes, but something is telling me there may be some sort of link between these two statements....

Last edited by vertigo; 03/25/10 12:59 PM.
Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403542
03/25/10 01:00 PM
03/25/10 01:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
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Westford, MA
the nosy ape Offline
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I use 123454314321231, but what is easy for me may not be easy for you.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: the nosy ape] #1403553
03/25/10 01:10 PM
03/25/10 01:10 PM
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Canada
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I use a mixture of 123545434321231 for when that motif appears in the minor (F minor, Bb minor and C minor if I remember...it's been a while) and 123454324321231 for major (I remember Gb major and Db major). The former needs a pretty strong right pinky for the fourth finger to bounce around it, but after a while you get used to it and it blends in.

Last edited by mr_roberts_z; 03/25/10 01:11 PM.
Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: the nosy ape] #1403555
03/25/10 01:12 PM
03/25/10 01:12 PM
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Skunkfunk9 Offline OP
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Thanks for the comment vertigo. What I meant was I wasn't trained as a classical piano player. I'm trained as a jazz saxophonist, which actually helps me play the piano because I approach pieces as if I were improvising. I don't have the technique of a classical player, but anyone who plays is a pianist right? I shouldn't have said that. Some are just better than others. I've been struggling because I'm not formally trained (only 1 semester of piano at IU with a grad student). Anyway, making smart ass comments to people genuinely looking for advice and help just makes you a jerk and proves how insecure you actually are about yourself. Thanks.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403567
03/25/10 01:23 PM
03/25/10 01:23 PM
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Unless you are super talented the difference between the Beethoven you've done and this piece is about.....ten years of study.

One needs technique on the level of a conservatory graduate to play this.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403570
03/25/10 01:24 PM
03/25/10 01:24 PM
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Woops! Another DP.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/25/10 02:02 PM.
Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: Skunkfunk9] #1403572
03/25/10 01:29 PM
03/25/10 01:29 PM
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vertigo Offline
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I was only joking with you, and meant no offence.

However, I was also making the point that this piece is probably way beyond your current ability. By your own admission you "don't have the technique of a classical player", and you're "struggling". In that case why pick such a difficult piece?

If you'd enjoyed a couple of climbing lessons on a wall in your local gym, you probably wouldn't wake up one morning, throw a rope in your suitcase and go and try and get yourself up Everest.

Re: diffuculty of appassionata 3rd mvt.? [Re: vertigo] #1403586
03/25/10 01:51 PM
03/25/10 01:51 PM
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skunkfunk :

Try not to take offense at some of the comments made here; they may have been prompted by a little bit of surprise or disbelief that you are trying to tackle such a formidable piano work without training, without a solid technical foundation and without a teacher.

Those with some training know how difficult this work is and how much foundation in solid technique it requires to even begin to pull it off. I guess it's a case of " ... where angels fear to tread." I really don't think those comments should be taken personally. The Everest analogy here is not totally out of place.

You might also consider consulting an edition that has suggested fingerings written in, although the use of fingers 4 and 5 should certainly figure more in the passage in question than your fingering does. That said, editors' fingerings are only suggestions because what works well for one person's hand may not necessarily work well for the hand of another.

I do agree with the other suggestion, however, that if you have had only one semester of piano with a grad student, this endeavor may lead more to frustration than to any sense of musical accomplishment.

Regards,


BruceD
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