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Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1400440
03/21/10 03:07 AM
03/21/10 03:07 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Volusiano can be touchy about his Avant Grand! laugh

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Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: theJourney] #1400442
03/21/10 03:19 AM
03/21/10 03:19 AM
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Volusiano Offline
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Originally Posted by theJourney
Volusiano can be touchy about his Avant Grand! laugh

Heck, I'm not even defending my N3 here. I'm actually defending the N2, which is not even the model I own! grin

As much as I'd like to hear that the N3 is "one" more thing better to justify the higher price I'd paid for it over the N2, I think it'd be so dumb if Yamaha intentionally crippled some capability on the N2 pedal just so they can have more differentiation instead of simply for cost savings.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1400445
03/21/10 03:28 AM
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Well, it certainly would not be the first time that Yamaha crippled some capability on a lesser instrument just to try to force people to fork over more money for the higher model. They don't consider doing so dumb, but rather smart... Just look at the way the Clavinova line has been dumbed down from the 9xx to the 2xx series and then again from the 2xx to the 3xx series.

If anyone is dumb it is consumers who keep paying Yamaha to play this game against our interests.

That is why I personally would prefer to support any other manufacturer than Yamaha that is actually willing to innovate and make those innovations available at a reasonable price to us consumers to break the consumer-unfriendly hegemony of the Yamaha corporation and their mighty marketing machines. Roland's VPiano and Super Realistic sound, Kawai's RM3 keyboard, Pianoteq's efficient PC model are all products that consumers should support if for no other reason than to force Yamaha to stop treating us like we are dumb.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: theJourney] #1400633
03/21/10 01:20 PM
03/21/10 01:20 PM
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The public votes with its purchase dollars. they are not dumb and neither is Yamaha. The Clavinova is the singularly most successful line of digital pianos in history (they invented the catagory). The N3/N2 is the most inovative product catagory in the last ten years, IMHO. What makes these products so successful is that Yamaha packages the touch, tone, and features consumers most want at a variety of price points. It is the package folks buy, not one feature alone.

Yes, there are stage and pro equipment that do certain aspect better, but that is not what the general home use buyer is after. Yes, there are deeper and wider PC models and samples, but again, that is not what the DP shopper is after.

You want to chock up the Clavinova successful history to smoke, mirrors, and marketing gimickery. More consumers think they just make better sounding, playing products.


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Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1401056
03/22/10 12:29 AM
03/22/10 12:29 AM
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The Yamaha AvantGrand brochure, found here --

http://www.yamaha.com/catalogs/PDFs/brochures/pianos/acoustic_pianos/AvantGrand2009_Brochure.pdf

-- indicates that the N3 sustain pedal is more sophisticated than the N2 pedal (see spec sheet and text, generally). How, exactly, the N3 pedal differs from the N2 pedal isn't entirely clear. (As the N3 pedal is depressed, resistance isn't linear, according to the brochure. Aside from that distinction, differences between the N3 and N2 pedals aren't spelled out.)

I recently purchased an N2, and the pedal on that piano is plenty sophisticated for a digital instrument. The instrument has partial pedaling. It also allows a recently-damped note to be sustained by depressing the damper pedal after the key has been released. (E.g., strike a chord; release; catch the damped, rapidly-decaying sound with the sustain pedal -- like an acoustic.)

Other subtle effects (not pedal related, but certainly related to dampers) on the N2 include sympathetic resonance from a single key that has been silently depressed in order to release the damper without actually playing the note first. (E.g., silently depress C3 then hit E3 staccato; C3 resonates sympathetically, with the E3 pitch -- like an acoustic.)

I upgraded from a CLP-380 to an N2, and it was well worth it, I think. The action is much much better; it's the real deal. In particular, the N2 allows for very realistic pianissimo. With the NW action in the 380, I was having a devil of a time playing quiet blocked chords precisely in unison (the type of chords found in much of Debussy, for example, and Brahms, Chopin -- classical literature, generally, I guess). The N2, by contrast, plays like an acoustic grand. It is far easier to voice chords (e.g., the hymn-like passage of Brahms Op. 118, No. 2). Also, the samples on the N2 are superior. Even the tuning is better. Some of the unisons on the 380 weren't as clean as they could be when listened to with high quality headphones (Sennheiser HD 580 or HD 600) (try, for example, pp on 2 d-flats above middle c -- i.e., the first note of La fille avec cheveux de lin -- is THAT the fifth velocity layer? Yuck.). The N2 is much better, using the same Sennheiser headphones.

And, yes, the tactile response works when using headphones. Interestingly (and pretty cool, too), when TRS is on, the instrument quietly emits the music you are playing in order to vibrate the keys (i.e., the vibrations are in tune). Thus, the piano is not entirely silent when TRS is on while using headphones, but it's pretty darn quiet, and if anyone in the house doesn't care to hear even that quiet sound, you can shut off TRS. (And, yes, I realize that Sennheiser HD 580s and 600s use an open design and leak lots of sound. Believe me, it really is the tactile response system that's generating the sound.)


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Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: kippesc] #1401086
03/22/10 02:01 AM
03/22/10 02:01 AM
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Volusiano Offline
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Thanks Kippesc for pointing out where to find the Yamaha brochure. It does look like there is clarification in there that the pedal pressure gradient is in the N3 only, although it looks like the TRS feed to the pedal exists in both models. So I stand corrected and take back what I said about the pedals being the same in both models.

I agree, though, that the pedal pressure gradient is probably something more appreciated by very discerning players who are used to feathering their pedals in an acoustic. To most other people, full pedaling and half pedaling is probably more than adequate. It is to me.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1401136
03/22/10 06:49 AM
03/22/10 06:49 AM
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coz Offline
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I bought an N2 yesterday! I'm very excited!

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: coz] #1401141
03/22/10 07:01 AM
03/22/10 07:01 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Congratulations. That is one helluva keyboard! We are all a little bit jealous, I can assure you.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: coz] #1401393
03/22/10 02:20 PM
03/22/10 02:20 PM
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4evrBeginR Offline
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Congrats. I'm also awaiting the delivery of my Avant Grand. 48 hours is a long time to wait for this thing....


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1401437
03/22/10 03:19 PM
03/22/10 03:19 PM
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coz Offline
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Thanks same to you. I have to wait a week which is torture.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1401502
03/22/10 05:17 PM
03/22/10 05:17 PM
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Volusiano Offline
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Originally Posted by 4evr88
Congrats. I'm also awaiting the delivery of my Avant Grand. 48 hours is a long time to wait for this thing....

4evr88, I notice that you bought the N3 on your signature. The N3 has kind of an odd shape so when it's stood on the side for moving, its bass side is not long enough to provide stability like a normal acoustic grand's bass side is. There's a wedge shape block that comes with the shipping to help support it on the side better. If you download the N3 manual from the Yamaha website and look at the Assembly section on page 41, you'll know what I'm talking about.

My dealer threw everything away and just delivered the N3 to me the traditional way (wrap blanket around and strap it up). But the delivery guys complained to me that it's harder for them to keep the N3 stabilized compared to a conventional grand for that reason (shorter bass side). They used extra blankets to stuff underneath where the wedge block is supposed to be, but it's still not optimal compare to if they had had that wedge block.

Anyway, I wish I had known in advance to ask the dealer to keep that wedge block for me to use in future moving. So I just want to pass on that knowledge in case you may want to do that.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1401505
03/22/10 05:25 PM
03/22/10 05:25 PM
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New Mexico (yes, USA!)
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jmmec Offline
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Out of curiosity, what does an N2 generally sell for in the U.S.? (A ballpark figure should suffice)


Last edited by BB Player; 03/22/10 05:57 PM. Reason: Let's leave the political commentary out.

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Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1401538
03/22/10 06:25 PM
03/22/10 06:25 PM
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California
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Thanks Volusiano; my dealer propably threw everything away too because I'm getting the one on the floor, so I guess I better call the dealer to make sure they are aware of the instability during transport.

jmmec, the N2 at my dealer (San Francisco, CA) is going for $10,000 USD.

The first time I played the N3, I didn't like it at all, because the sound was clearly piano-from-speakers and had no acoustic piano illusions. Then the second time recently, the problem of "speaker-like" piano sound was completely gone. I discovered the first time I tried it, the N3 was backed against the wall (tail facing wall) and that was causing the problem. It also caused way too much bass. Second time, the N3 was in the middle of the floor and the effect is very natural.

I remember my first impression of the N3 was, wow for this effect, I could just get the CLP-380 and save $10K. Of course, keyboard is not the same, but I didn't feel the difference in the keyboard was worth $10K. Then I returned to try the N2 and loved it. Then recently went back to try the N3 again and what a difference. It goes to show where you put these things makes a HUGE difference.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1401550
03/22/10 06:51 PM
03/22/10 06:51 PM
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Volusiano Offline
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4evr88, I'm sure the dealer will have more N3 coming in, so I've actually just called mine up to ask that they save me that wedge piece the next time they get another one in and I'll stop by to pick it up. I got the one on the floor, too.

I agree that placement of the N3 is everything, not any different than placement of an acoustic grand. I have mine in the middle of a great room surrounded by the kitchen, entertainment room, and dining room, with a 15 foot cathedral ceiling in the middle, and it sounds great.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: kippesc] #1401603
03/22/10 08:17 PM
03/22/10 08:17 PM
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Melodialworks Music Offline
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Originally Posted by kippesc



In particular, the N2 allows for very realistic pianissimo. With the NW action in the 380, I was having a devil of a time playing quiet blocked chords precisely in unison (the type of chords found in much of Debussy, for example, and Brahms, Chopin -- classical literature, generally, I guess). The N2, by contrast, plays like an acoustic grand. It is far easier to voice chords (e.g., the hymn-like passage of Brahms Op. 118, No. 2). Also, the samples on the N2 are superior. Even the tuning is better. Some of the unisons on the 380 weren't as clean as they could be when listened to with high quality headphones (Sennheiser HD 580 or HD 600) (try, for example, pp on 2 d-flats above middle c -- i.e., the first note of La fille avec cheveux de lin -- is THAT the fifth velocity layer? Yuck.). The N2 is much better, using the same Sennheiser headphones.


Wow. I'm getting excited reading this . . . !

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1401620
03/22/10 08:43 PM
03/22/10 08:43 PM
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coz Offline
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I wonder how this affects the N2 as well. There are speakers facing the wall and now I'm wondering how close to wall I should put it?

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: coz] #1401627
03/22/10 08:52 PM
03/22/10 08:52 PM
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Volusiano Offline
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Originally Posted by coz
I wonder how this affects the N2 as well. There are speakers facing the wall and now I'm wondering how close to wall I should put it?


Coz, I would think that the N2 as an upright should be designed to be set up against the wall as the optimal placement, so I wouldn't worry there'd be an issue with it sounding bad against the wall. The only question would be whether you can put it right up against the wall or may have to place it a few inches away. And that's something you can experiment to find out when you have it at home.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: Volusiano] #1401675
03/22/10 09:48 PM
03/22/10 09:48 PM
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Yeah I'll probably try both ways. I'll report back next week.

Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: coz] #1401708
03/22/10 10:44 PM
03/22/10 10:44 PM
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Start with 4 inches away from the wall and tweak it from there... do let us know your optimal distance.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
Re: Avant Grand N2 vs N3 [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1402691
03/24/10 10:21 AM
03/24/10 10:21 AM
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coz Offline
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4evr88, did you get your N3 yet?

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