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Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? #1391823
03/09/10 01:11 AM
03/09/10 01:11 AM
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Cashley Offline OP
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My Yamaha CLP runs on GH3. Despite it being a graded hammer action, it doesn't reproduce the touch of escapement in an acoustic.

Has DP technology caught up with the concept of escapement in an acoustic ?

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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: Cashley] #1391873
03/09/10 03:17 AM
03/09/10 03:17 AM
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Volusiano Offline
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The Avant-Grand and its older cousin the GranTouch line of course have the double escapement action of an acoustic grand, but only because they use real acoustic action, not just trying to mimick it. As for the other DP lines who don't use the real action, it seems like Kawai has really nice action though.

Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: Volusiano] #1391882
03/09/10 03:30 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Although apparently the Kawai only offers its escapement simulation in the top of the line CA93 and so far no one posting here reports it being preferable or even noticeable to the model without.

The AvantGrand line and the Yamaha Silent Grands would seem to be the only true options that reproduce c.q. offer a real acoustic action with escapement. They of course also come with a price tag of between $10.000, and $35.000,

The consistently most favorable rated halfway affordable digital piano keyboards/actions here seem to be in this order:

1. Kawai AWA Pro I (no longer in production)
2. Kawai RM3
3. Roland PHA-III (available on VPiano and HP-307)
4. Roland PHA-II


Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: Volusiano] #1391883
03/09/10 03:31 AM
03/09/10 03:31 AM
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mucci Offline
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Regarding escapement that included only in the higher priced KAWAI CA93, CA63 does not have escapement.

Others are e.g. many Rolands like HP307, and the new Casio line.

I personally don't care about escapement, but that's just my personal opinion.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: theJourney] #1391884
03/09/10 03:33 AM
03/09/10 03:33 AM
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mucci Offline
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Originally Posted by theJourney

1. Kawai AWA Pro I (no longer in production)
2. Kawai RM3


theJourney, that's interesting. Do you know of anyone who did a direct comparison of these two actions?


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: mucci] #1391885
03/09/10 03:37 AM
03/09/10 03:37 AM
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sullivang Offline
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Does the Casio really have escapement? I thought the new line was graded hammer, with the triple sensors, but no escapement.

For Roland, the actions to look for are:

1. "PHAII with escapement" It it says PHAII, but does NOT mention escapement, then it doesn't have escapement.

2. PHAIII (very similar to PHAII, but also with three key position sensors, for improved repetition)

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: sullivang] #1391888
03/09/10 03:49 AM
03/09/10 03:49 AM
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pesk Offline
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Casio doesn't have officialy escapement but it's true that when you slowly press the key down you can feel small increasing of key ressistance in the middle of the key track. It's caused probably by rubber cover of third sensor under the centre of the key.
I have not chance to try some keyboard with real escapement simulation yet (PHAII with esc. or RM3) so I can't compare the feeling.

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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: pesk] #1392483
03/09/10 09:12 PM
03/09/10 09:12 PM
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Marty Flinn Offline
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Back in late 1990s Technics (Panasonic)fielded the SX-PX228. It was their top of the line digital solo (CLP type in Yamaha nomenclature) piano. It had a let off type feel to the touch. Because of the price point they never sold very well. It amazes me that all these years later there still very few escapement type DP actions.


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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: Cashley] #1392487
03/09/10 09:20 PM
03/09/10 09:20 PM
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ChrisA Offline
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Originally Posted by Cashley

Has DP technology caught up with the concept of escapement in an acoustic ?


Yes. Some have. The Yamaha N3 uses the actual wooden parts from a grand piano so of course it's touch is exactly like a grand piano. But so is the cost ($20K list)

Roland uses escapement on the RD700GX. It is a $2,500 top of the line stage piano and the HP307 is the home piano version. I think the Roland v-piano has the same keys a the HP307.

There is also much argument about why and if anyone needs this in a digital piano.

Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: Marty Flinn] #1392612
03/10/10 01:52 AM
03/10/10 01:52 AM
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mucci Offline
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Originally Posted by Marty Flinn
Back in late 1990s Technics (Panasonic)fielded the SX-PX228. It was their top of the line digital solo (CLP type in Yamaha nomenclature) piano. It had a let off type feel to the touch. Because of the price point they never sold very well. It amazes me that all these years later there still very few escapement type DP actions.


I see your point. I for myself do not care for this escapement action since I do not see any advantage for my style of playing. Maybe that's true for the majority of users so there is no pressure to DP manufacturers to build this into all DPs.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: mucci] #1392777
03/10/10 10:19 AM
03/10/10 10:19 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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I may be wrong but I think escapement in real pianos is a compromise that allows the hammer to get disengaged from the key near the bottom of the key (and respectively hammer) motion, so that hammer can strike the string and jump back immediately allowing the string to vibrate freely. Without that, the hammer would strike the string and remain there thus preventing the string to vibrate and decay naturally. Besides, you would feel the strike and those springy motions of the string being hit in your hands which will create both discomfort to you and an excessive stress to the wooden parts of the action. So, I consider escapement as a compromise. I bet the authentic piano masters would have loved to have a way to not use escapement. Digital pianos allow that now. I think we should try to emulate the real thing only when it comes to useful features allowing greater expression and dynamics. Escapement has nothing to do with greater expression, it was a workaround and in my humble opinion we should skip that when copying real action.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/10/10 10:22 AM.

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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: CyberGene] #1392785
03/10/10 10:25 AM
03/10/10 10:25 AM
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mucci Offline
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I agree. But all comes down to the individual purpose of a DP. Some might want to have this escapement action because they want to get used to that feeling because they study for performing later on a real acoustic grand.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: mucci] #1392794
03/10/10 10:35 AM
03/10/10 10:35 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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I agree with your point. Maybe the escapement in a digital piano could be easily switched on/off albeit mechanically? Has anyone seen how the escapement is implemented in the new digital pianos with that feature? See for example this link from Fatar site:

http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40_GH_ES.htm

At the bottom I read "AVAILABLE OPTIONALS: - ES: mechanical Escapment Touch Feeling Kit"

I see that this escapement kit is offered for several Fatar key-beds and this makes me believe it is not integral of the design of the action but is rather a kit which can be added. The question is how easy is to add or remove that kit and is it possible to do it by a mechanical switch only.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/10/10 10:36 AM.

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Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: CyberGene] #1392803
03/10/10 10:49 AM
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I have heard from a friend of mine who is a piano technician qualified to install third-party silent systems (Korg) in real acoustic pianos that the stock silent pianos from Yamaha and Kawai are better because the mechanical switch which mutes the strings has additional function apart of silent on/off lever. It also changes the regulation of the hammers. (I am not sure if the word "regulation" is correct in English. Bulgarian piano technicians use it to describe how long is the key travel before the escapement feature disengages the hammer from the key). So, if it is possible to mechanically vary the escapement point, maybe it is possible also to choose if there is an escapement at all or not.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/10/10 10:49 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: CyberGene] #1392907
03/10/10 01:38 PM
03/10/10 01:38 PM
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escapment is even more useless if you are not able to get any sound when you depress the key from the hard point. It's the case with hp 203 207 and with avant grand piano. In a real piano you can go down to the hard point without passing it, and then press firmly and still get a sound.

Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: sieg66] #1392922
03/10/10 01:58 PM
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What is the click sensation when you press a key on a real grand piano down? What does the hanmmer action do when you feel that click?

No smartass comments this time please.

Piece!

Re: Which DP keyboard most accurately mimics escapement feel ? [Re: CyberGene] #1392924
03/10/10 02:05 PM
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Volusiano Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I may be wrong but I think escapement in real pianos is a compromise that allows the hammer to get disengaged from the key near the bottom of the key (and respectively hammer) motion, so that hammer can strike the string and jump back immediately allowing the string to vibrate freely. Without that, the hammer would strike the string and remain there thus preventing the string to vibrate and decay naturally. Besides, you would feel the strike and those springy motions of the string being hit in your hands which will create both discomfort to you and an excessive stress to the wooden parts of the action. So, I consider escapement as a compromise. I bet the authentic piano masters would have loved to have a way to not use escapement. Digital pianos allow that now. I think we should try to emulate the real thing only when it comes to useful features allowing greater expression and dynamics. Escapement has nothing to do with greater expression, it was a workaround and in my humble opinion we should skip that when copying real action.


I think you're wrong here. Double escapement is a useful and desired feature of the modern grand that allows quick repeat of a note without having to fully release the key first. Manufacturers go out of their way to design and incorporate this feature to allow more versatility in the action. Upright designs usually don't have this because they can't take advantage of gravity pulling the hammer down and away from the string like the way the grand can. However, manufacturers of some newer (and usually high end, expensive) uprights have now been able to design and incorporate escapement into their higher priced upright. If it's not a desired feature, nobody in their right mind would try to add it in.

See this link that deconstructs the acoustic grand action and show how the elaborate repetition mechanism works that enables this escapement feature. You can click on the "action in motion" link there to see an animated window of how the action moves.


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