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Hello All,

I currently looking at getting a Yamaha Avant Grand, but cannot decide between the N2 and N3. The main differences seems to be the better speaker/amplification system and the grand-action pedals. Not sure if those things justify the $5000 price difference between the two. I haven't yet had a chance to try both at the same time in order to make a direct comparison.

For those who have more experience with the N2 AND N3, what was your impression of the quality/feel/expression between the two? Do you think the N3 is worth spending the extra $$$ over the N2?

Plans for the piano are primarily for practice in an apartment, headphones 50% of the time, and as a secondary piano for teaching.

Thanks!

Hi Lechuan, welcome to the forum. I own an N3, but I bought it 7 months ago when the N2 hasn't come out yet (although I knew about the N2 at the time). If I were in your described situation (apartment, headphones 50%, for practice and teaching only), I would pick an N2 over an N3 for the money saving. The N3 is supposed to sound better than the N2 (on speakers, but same on headphones), but if you can't take advantage of the better speaker/amp system more than half the time, it'd be kind of wasted.

For people who have the room and want the look of a grand and not an upright in their home, and who want the best sound system they can get and want to use it for performance with guests or whatnot, they'd have to pay the premium for the N3. But as a practice and teaching instrument, the N2 is more than adequate, and I'm sure the sound system, while not as good as the N3, should still be very good. There's nothing apologetic about the N2 sound system having 12 speakers/12 amplifiers.

The keyboard action is the same, the sampled sound is the same (4 channels). Even though the N2 doesn't have the grand-style pedal lyre like the N3, the functionality and feel of the 3 N2 pedals is the same as the N3. Both have the Tactile Response System (TRS) for vibration feel on the keyboard, which is uses 2x80W transducers.

The N2 does not have the 2 extra 22W transducers for the soundboard resonators like the N3 has.

As for the bass speakers, the N3 uses 4x16cm driven by 4x30W amp, while the N2 uses 2x16cm driven by 2x22W amps. There are 4x13cm mid speakers driven by 4x22W amps in the N3, while the N2 has 3x13cm and 1x8cm mid driven by 4x22W amps. Same amount of tweeter speakers on both, 4x2.5cm driven by 4x22W amps. Also, obviously the 4-channel speaker horizontal layout on the N3 matches better to where the sampled sound sources come from, and therefore it makes better use of the spatial acoustic effect than the N2.

The N3 is 438 lbs and the N2 is 313 lbs.

While the N3 is $5K more than the N2 list price wise, the cost difference should be less than $5K because you're not going to pay list price in the first place.

This is interesting information.
I recently played a N2 in a shop and was very impressed with the real action and with the authentic sounding volume.
Unfortunately I did not have my headphones with me to test out what I would hear on headphones.
How much of the realism of the Avantgrand sound is dependent on this "4 channel" audio design and does that mean that the sound is more like a conventional Clavinova when one is listening through conventional headphones without the benefit of all the speakers and transducers?

TheJourney, I use the headphones a lot on my N3, too, because I tend to play late at night when the family is sleeping. I don't know how it compares to the Clavinova sound on the headphones, but to me, it's pretty darn good.

You raised an interesting question, though. I'm just as curious to know myself. I remember a recent thread (click here for link) where another forum member (Dave Ferris) posted this comparison:

Anyone feel like donating a DPBSD MP3 of the N3? I'd run it by you privately to discuss / debate the results before I posted it.

Dewster, I don't mind doing this, as I'm curious to see the results myself. I can probably put the midi files into a USB stick and try to drive my N3, but I don't have a set up to record mp3 files from the N3. I suppose I can hook it up to my laptop's mic input or something. Can you PM me with some recording suggestion? Thanks.

I would bet that the sample on the N2/N3 is like a high-end Clavinova. The thing that sets it apart is the tactile sensations it creates. And these are defeated by use of headphones. If quiet/night time practice forms an important part of the piano's use you would probably have to conclude that the Avant Grands might not be the right choice.

Steve

I wouldn't be surprised either that through the headphones they may not sound too much different. But I think what sets it apart is just not the tactile response system for the vibration feel, but more importantly the fact that the sound on the N3 is 4 channel sample instead of just stereo sample. This in addition to how the 4-channel speakers are strategically laid-out horizontally, matching the positions of where the 4 sampling mics are located on the acoustic grand, helps create the spatial acoustic realism to the sound similarly to where it would emanate from an acoustic. But then 4 channel reduced to stereo for the headphones no longer has any of those advantages.

I agree that it's not optimal to buy an N3 if silent practice is the main use, but if the true grand keyboard action is required in addition to headphone use, the N2 still offers this same grand action but at a better value than the N3 (due to a lower price), so a better choice.

The N3 when playing over it's internal speakers uses four channels of samples. Obviously it can't play backs it's four channels into headphones of into Line Out for audio recording. So you will never be able to get a true recording on what a live N3 sounds like. But for the purposes of the DBSD test we will be able to see note stretching and loops and so on. I assume it plays only two of the four channels into line out either that or it combines four into two but I doubt that as they'd have problems with phase.

Well I do use headphones a lot and I couldn't really accommodate an N3. I wouldn't turn my nose up at an N2 though...I personally like the look of both of them very much. I had a GranTouch GT2 with the same action and it was a very nice action, as you would expect. Sound was good for its day but nothing special. I remember Yamaha made a big deal of its 30mb of sample ROM when the original GranTouch was launched!

Steve

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Steve, I was able to get an MP3 file of the N3 out to Dewster to analyze. He just posted the results on this thread "DP BSD Project". You may want to check it out if you're curious. It looks like the N3 fares better than the CLP-330 that Dewster has analyzed, which is good to know.

I think because the N3 sound is a 4 channel setup which has not been done before, Yamaha couldn't really reuse the stereo sample they had on the Clavinova line to build upon it anyway. So while they were redoing the sample from scratch for 4 channels, they probably figured they should do a better job sampling this time around. Just a guess...

Thanks all for your feedback! I have not yet had a chance to do a direct comparison (probably won't for a while once I actually realistically looked at my budget and realized that $15K is out of my range!). Will stick with my CLP-970 for now.

Actually, the N2 does not have the special pedal system of the N3 that provides the non-linear resistive feel of grand piano dampers.

Really? Can you share how you come to know of this exactly?

In the N3/N2 manual, the spec for their pedal section is exactly the same. There's nothing in the operation part of the manual that says they're different either. And on the Avant-Grand.com website, it does not differentiate N3 or N2 when it talks about the pedal pressure gradient, which implies that it's the same for both.

I would find it hard to believe that Yamaha would bother to come up with 2 different pedal designs for this, as it would just cost them more money to do 2 different pedal designs, and just to cripple the N2's capability on purpose. It'd make no sense because it would give the N2 less than the complete authentic feel Yamaha is striving for on the AG line.

I would really love to know the source of your knowledge on your claim to see how true it is. I don't believe your claim at this point.

I just played the N2 and N3. They were great!

My space is constrained and I started to look at keyboards for my apartment. I bought a CP1. While it has excellent sound, the action was not what I was expecting for classical playing. I returned it and thought maybe a V-piano. I tried one yesterday and I liked the action slightly better than the CP1. However, I think I will be dissapointed in that as well.

I've decided to get an N2. I think it will be best for my practice. I will use headphones about half the time as well. I did prefer the sound on the N3 better but I don't have space for it. The only thing I will miss from the other keyboards is the tweaking of the hammer hardness etc. I guess I could always hook it up to some computer software down the road if I like. The priority for me at the moment is the action so that I can practice effectively.

Re the last post. The pedals are different in each model. to be honest I didn't notice the sensation in the N3 while playing.

When you said the pedals are different in each model, do you mean they look different or do they actual feel different? I know it's obvious they look different because the N3 is a grand-style pedal lyre, while the N2 is the upright-style design without the lyre. But I'd have a hard time believing that they would "feel" any different from each other.

If they actually "feel" different from each other, which do you think is superior? Technically, if the claim by 4ever88 were right, the N3's pedal is supposed to be superior. But I assume that you wouldn't have wanted to buy the N2 if you had felt that its pedal were inferior to the N3.

And when you said you didn't notice the sensation in the N3, do you mean the pedal pressure gradient? I think that is something very subtle, and if you usually just pedal it on and off (like I do), it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't feel much different anyway. It's only people who usually feather-play their pedal very delicately with varying degrees of pressure who may recognize the subtle difference of having this pedal pressure gradient.

I've read that the N3's tactile response system includes the pedals but that the N2 it does not. I didn't notice any difference between the two in that sense. The pressure gradient felt the same to me.

The brochure vaguely points out that the N3 pedal system is superior as well. I think they both support half pedaling and I didn't notice a difference.

I do like the N3 better in terms of sound and looks. However I don't have room for it. 5k better I'm not so sure. They both are exceptional!

Proof? You're kidding me. I'm not a teenager. Please do your own homework. Stating I don't believe you explicitly is not good manners.

Not sure why you get all offended? So am I supposed to believe anything a stranger says without challenging their claim if I don't believe it?

Obviously you challenged what I said about the 2 models' pedals functioning the same. Doesn't that mean you're also stating explicitly that you don't believe me, too? Hence not good manners on your part, too?

I think I've done my own homework. I've owned an N3 for 7 months now. I bought the very first one available in my state. I have the manual that covers both N3 & N2. I've been to the www.avant-grand.com website that talks about both. I never saw any mention of the pedals being different, like I said.

But I admit that I'm just guessing that the pedals are the same. And I'll also admit that I never had a chance to play an N2 so far. Although I still find it hard to believe that they'd be different, maybe there's some new brochure or something that I haven't seen that confirms that they're different. If that's the case, just tell me the source you got this from and I'll believe you. I'm not asking for "proof" so much as I want to know where the source of this information comes from so I'm better informed.

And some clarification on what the difference is. Is it the pedal gradient pressure? Or is it the TRS feed to the pedal? Or both?