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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1387394
03/03/10 04:20 PM
03/03/10 04:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
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ChrisA Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster

Does that sound crazy? It certainly seems to be the case for the CLP-330 anyway.



I think you have the target market for this kind of piano correct. Most buyers will not be experts in the technology but that applies to buyers of TV sets, computers and even car tires.

But I don't thing Yamaha trys to mask the sound with a poor audio section. On the contrary. They use well designed sound systems because this is what matters. People judge the piano sound based on loudness and the amount of bass.

As an example most people will rate the YDP223 sound as better then the YDP160 even if the 160 has better specs simply because the 223 has better amps and speakers.

Looking at the audio sections of Yamaha DPs they seem to be very good designs in that they get quite good sound from very low cost parts. This is how engineers earn their pay. Any idiot can get high quality with a high budget.

A trick used by commissioned stereo salesmen is to turn the more expensive system up louder. Buyers always think "louder is better". You need to be very careful to match volume levels when you A/B test audio systems so as not to get suckered by that effect.

We only see a minority of buyers here, the owes who think to research a DP. Most I'm sure buy based on price and physical appearance. And necessary low price either. People generally are looking for a match to their budget.

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA] #1387451
03/03/10 05:20 PM
03/03/10 05:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
But I don't thing Yamaha trys to mask the sound with a poor audio section. On the contrary. They use well designed sound systems because this is what matters. People judge the piano sound based on loudness and the amount of bass.

I'm talking more about the treble, I should have been clearer. And I don't think they set out to make a poor audio section, the treble is often rather neglected, particularly when the speakers are not directly facing the listener. But I believe they could easily capitalize on that fact by cutting corners in the sample department until compression artifacting starts becoming audible.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
Any idiot can get high quality with a high budget.

You must be blessed with a higher quality selection of idiots than those that surround me! smile

Originally Posted by ChrisA
A trick used by commissioned stereo salesmen is to turn the more expensive system up louder. Buyers always think "louder is better". You need to be very careful to match volume levels when you A/B test audio systems so as not to get suckered by that effect.

Exactly. I've read that even 0.1dB change in loudness can influence how the sound of something is perceived in terms of quality.

Originally Posted by ChrisA
People generally are looking for a match to their budget.

Very good point.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1388395
03/04/10 10:23 PM
03/04/10 10:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 86
New Mexico (yes, USA!)
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jmmec Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
I got a response from Roland, they said they would get the HP-307 MIDI implementation document from their corporate parent and post it here:

http://backstage.rolandus.com/product_manuals/



Hmmmm... It doesn't look like the document has been released yet.

I don't know if you saw this (or that it will help while you are waiting for the HP-307 manual), but there is a MIDI doc for the HP-203/205, where they list the various configuration settings for "Damper Resonance": their description seems to match your definition of "sympathetic resonance".

Quote
0040: Damper Resonance
On an acoustic piano, holding down the damper pedal allows other strings to resonate in sympathy with the notes you play, creating rich and spacious resonances. This effect simulates these damper resonances.


Here is the document:

http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/HP-203_MI.pdf

Perhaps some of the Damper Resonance settings for the HP-203/205 would work on the HP-307?

[It seems strange that this document doesn't apply to the HP-207. Maybe Roland has different MIDI EFX implementations for different DPs, even within the same family]


Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec] #1388603
03/05/10 04:34 AM
03/05/10 04:34 AM
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I sent an email to Roland Poland (where I live) asking about the implementation of damper resonance and noise effect. I didn't ask for midi implementation sheet but just why it doesnt work when playing from midi and if it's intentional or can be fixed somehow. If I receive an answer I'll post here.

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1388615
03/05/10 05:17 AM
03/05/10 05:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
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mucci Offline
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Munich, Germany
Hahaaa! Roland Poland! That's like Kawai Hawaii...

Sorry, couldn't resist!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1388627
03/05/10 05:53 AM
03/05/10 05:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,013
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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...if only KAWAI had an office in Hawaii!

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1388635
03/05/10 06:16 AM
03/05/10 06:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 428
Europe, Poland
kiedysktos. Offline
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Europe, Poland
I'm from Poland smile there is also Roland Holland (Netherlands). Hehe!


Roland FP-4
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.] #1388640
03/05/10 06:35 AM
03/05/10 06:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
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mucci Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
...Yamaha Panama...


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1388678
03/05/10 08:00 AM
03/05/10 08:00 AM
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zaba19 Offline
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From first answer they seem to be unaware of the problem and ask me if I changed any settings... I asked them to do a specific sequence of operations to try to reproduce it.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec] #1388784
03/05/10 11:06 AM
03/05/10 11:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JMMEC
Hmmmm... It doesn't look like the document has been released yet.

I hope the email I got from them wasn't just a brush-off.

Originally Posted by JMMEC
Perhaps some of the Damper Resonance settings for the HP-203/205 would work on the HP-307?
...
[It seems strange that this document doesn't apply to the HP-207. Maybe Roland has different MIDI EFX implementations for different DPs, even within the same family]

Thanks for the pointer! Hard to say. I wish I had one here to perform experiments on.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1388794
03/05/10 11:15 AM
03/05/10 11:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
I sent an email to Roland Poland (where I live) asking about the implementation of damper resonance and noise effect. I didn't ask for midi implementation sheet but just why it doesnt work when playing from midi and if it's intentional or can be fixed somehow. If I receive an answer I'll post here.

Thanks! Maybe if enough people ask they will release the secret SYSEX codes - or a firmware update?

To me this is a rather large issue. Having a DP voice that is possibly good enough to record with, but not having certain features of that voice play back via MIDI kind of defeats the purpose. It would be great to be able to have someone perform on it (with good headphones for accurate, balanced feedback to the player), record the MIDI, do a few minor edits, then play it back and record the audio.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1389879
03/06/10 06:44 PM
03/06/10 06:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Northern NJ
DPBSD v1.5 Released

There is now a new version of the DPBSD MIDI file, please use it for all current and new testing. The readme file has been updated as well to explain the new tests, and it contains some extra info on recording details as well.

Basically there are two new tests: one for limited sympathetic resonance of silently held notes, the other for pedal down silent replay behavior.

Some of the tests have been moved to better group like tests, and to place the potentially loudest test first.

====================
= Revision History =
====================
v1.5 - 2010-03-06:
- Moved pedal down sympathetic resonance test to be first test due to high amplitudes involved.
- Changed pedal down sympathetic resonance test timing & notes - now more dissonant & excludes damperless keys.
- Third phase of pedal down sympathetic resonance test now has keys down for full time to match second phase.
- Third phase of pedal down sympathetic resonance test pedal up event moved a bit later than key-up events.
- Added key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Added pedal down silent replay test.
- Moved partial pedal test to 4th to better group these similar tests.
- Shortened C8 by 1/3, C9 by 1/2 in looping test to better match Pianoteq decay time.
- Reduced key down time from 120 to 100 for all notes in velocity layer test to remove event ambiguity.
- Can use recording level (test 0) to reveal unusual note repeats (e.g. odd damped behavior of Yamaha CLP-330)

v1.4 - 2010-02-17:
- Added C5 (x7) velocity = 127 at start of file as an aid in setting peak recording level.
- Added two pedal=111 notes to the partial pedaling test, moved all pedal events midway between the notes.

v1.3 - 2010-02-03:
- Fixed problem with a loud velocity in the middle of test #3 (was double note).
- Extended sustain (key down) times for second phase of test #4 - now the same as third phase.

v1.2 - 2010-02-03:
- Changed velocity from 63 to 100 for all notes in test #4.
- Created readme file.
- There seems to be a problem with a loud velocity in the middle of test #3?

v1.1 - 2010-02-02:
- Born.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1389889
03/06/10 06:53 PM
03/06/10 06:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 27
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Nachtschatten Offline
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Nachtschatten  Offline
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Posts: 27
Utrecht, The Netherlands
I found the link to the sustain test (aka pedal down silent replay test), thanks theJourney (and kudos to jscomposer):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/703018/1.html


Just ordered an RD-700GX (SN upgrade) within an upright cabinet + nice speakers, looking very much forward to receiving + playing it!
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Nachtschatten] #1389904
03/06/10 07:16 PM
03/06/10 07:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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dewster  Offline OP
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Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Nachtschatten
I found the link to the sustain test (aka pedal down silent replay test), thanks theJourney (and kudos to jscomposer):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/703018/1.html

I saw your post over on the other thread as well.

Thanks!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1389907
03/06/10 07:19 PM
03/06/10 07:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
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ChrisA Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted by dewster

It would be great to be able to have someone perform on it (with good headphones for accurate, balanced feedback to the player), record the MIDI, do a few minor edits, then play it back and record the audio.


I think most people who would record to MIDI and edit would prefer to play back the MIDI through a software instrument. Not only are these better samples but the technical quality is very good because there is "analog gap" the virtual instrument goes straight to a .wav file.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA] #1389926
03/06/10 07:59 PM
03/06/10 07:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
[I think most people who would record to MIDI and edit would prefer to play back the MIDI through a software instrument. Not only are these better samples but the technical quality is very good because there is "analog gap" the virtual instrument goes straight to a .wav file.

I agree, but then you lose the tracking between how someone plays on a particular DP and the playback on something entirely different. I've had to deal with that before and it's a real pain. Even different speakers or headphones while the person is playing can drastically alter the sound of the DP (particularly the bass), and therefore how they play it. Record MIDI => Playback on same device is the way to go.

Last edited by dewster; 03/06/10 08:05 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1391594
03/08/10 07:44 PM
03/08/10 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Northern NJ
Yamaha AvantGrand N3 Review

Volusiano was kind enough to run his Yamaha AvantGrand N3 through the DPBSD gauntlet of tests. I received the MP3 file yesterday and spent some time analyzing it last night and this morning.

The samples are the longest I've seen so far in something that is conventionally looped, and the decay time is nice and long. It would really benefit from longer loop samples though. It appears to be fully sampled (no stretching), and the velocity timbre transition is smooth. Pedal down sympathetic resonance sounds better than what Yamaha usually does.

------------------------
- Yamaha AvantGrand N3 -
------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_avant_grand_n3.mp3
- USB Flash drive (MIDI file), headphone out, Laptop, Adobe Audition.
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test - resonance is fairly nice.
- Pedal down sample is a realistic "loom of strings" sound.
- I believe it passes the key down sympathetic resonance test, but the effect is very subtle.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Highly damped partially pedaled notes have buzzy partially damped sound.
- Key-up of louder notes produces realistic buzzy damping sound.
- Sample lengths are somewhat longer than usual.
- Nice long decays on the order of Pianoteq.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 4.4,4.3,3.9,3.5,3.0,2.1,?,? seconds.
- No visible or audible stretching.
- Velocity appears to be a smoothly blended multi-layer sample set.
- No audible velocity layer switching.
- Something like a velocity layer switch barely visible @ vel=78 (spectral pan view).
- Huge dynamic range (~55dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- Obviously looped, both visually and audibly, particularly the lowest notes, though it isn't too badly done.
- Loop lengths are rather short.
- Loop lengths are (C2:C9): 0.7,0.67,0.67,0.67,0.56,0.43,?,? seconds.
OTHER:
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -70dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-08


[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of note C4. Loop begins at cursor.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of note C4. Single loop is highlighted.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of note C5. Loop begins at cursor.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of note C5. Single loop is highlighted.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of stretching test, the bass notes are shown here. No evidence of stretching anywhere on the keyboard.

[Linked Image]
Spectral frequency view of the layer test. Velocity layers are smoothly blended with no visual or audible steps.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of the layer test.

As usual, there are more pix, the MP3, and the test review located at the MediaFire sharepoint.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1391623
03/08/10 08:23 PM
03/08/10 08:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,013
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Interesting stuff!

Thanks dewster and Volusiano.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1391751
03/08/10 11:51 PM
03/08/10 11:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Thanks! It was quite interesting reviewing such a high-end DP. It was also the maiden voyage of v1.5 of the test.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1391860
03/09/10 03:52 AM
03/09/10 03:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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madshi Offline
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Yey - was hoping for the N3 - thanks to Volusiano (and dewster)!

It is interesting that the N3 does better, technically, than the CP1/CP5, in this test. But still, there's room for further improvements...

Now the one sample I'm still waiting for is Roland HP207 or RD700GX.

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