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Originally Posted by theJourney
Well, I have tried to discuss the issues, but both of those posts have been deleted by someone.... including my post at 15:45 and the other one at 16:09...

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Folks: let's keep the discussion on the Kawaii CA63 and leave the political/historical/geopolitical discussions out.


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Originally Posted by theJourney
Well, I have tried to discuss the issues, but both of those posts have been deleted by someone....


By someone? I guess this was because you have violated some of the board rules.

But anyway, we should stop this right now, let's get back to what is the reason why we are here: We're all enthusiastic piano lovers who want to discuss our sweethearts! 2hearts


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ca93 also have escapment simulation. How does it acts ? Can we reach the hard point and then get a sound if we press firmly enough ?

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For all who currently have no chance of playing the CA63 themselves, I have put some more audio files on the net:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ywkyywjyz5x/CA63-song1.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0mznoxqmmk4/CA63-song2.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dodzn0iud5w/CA63-song3.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/kgmunvb2nnz/CA63-song4.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tnvtthmmdyy/CA63-song5.mp3

Settings:
Concert Grand
EQ: Loudness
Damper Resonance: 8
String Resonance: 5
Key Off: 6
Reverb: Hall 2

Song5 is a self-created 2-layer sound consisting of Concert Grand and New Age E.P.

Last edited by kawaian; 03/07/10 09:15 AM.

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I have now tried to use Pianoteq with my CA63 and I can say that the internal sound Concert Grand 1 is by far better than Pianoteq. I'm getting more and more impressed of this piano, I don't think that those of you who haven't played the CA93/63 yet, can understand what a fantastic product this is. In my opinion, KAWAI has not only the best keyboard in todays' digital pianos, they have also the best and most authentic sound available. I'm so proud of you KAWAI!

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Andree, I understood that you have tried the previous kawai model because you first told that the sound was not improved. How do you compare the sound now that you have CA 63 at home ? What didn't you like that you like now, is the sound very different from, say, CA 51 ?

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sieg66, even if I was disappointed with the sound in the CA63 initially, when I tried it in the store, I can say that I found an improvement between this model and the CA91/71/51. Between the CA18 and the CA63 it was difficult to hear any difference.

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Ok thanks. I tried the CA18 in a shop and couldn't say if it was good or not. Probably the same phenomenum than in your experience.

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I agree with Andre, that Kawai digitals don't seem to get their do on the Forum. A lot of talk about Yamaha and Roland, but little said about Kawai. They make a solid quality product that is highly competitive.

Now that I have said that, I do not agree that they spend longer making them than Yamaha. Or, that they have smaller capacity. Their sales (and consequent production) are driven by demand for their product. The materials used and the care in the assembly is little different from that of Yamaha and likely Roland.

Compared to the touch and tone of a comparable Yamaha Clavinova model the Kawai simply feels and sounds different. Clavinovas sample a Yamaha grand. Kawais sample a Kawai grand.


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Originally Posted by Marty Flinn
Compared to the touch and tone of a comparable Yamaha Clavinova model the Kawai simply feels and sounds different.


I wouldn't agree that the Kawai "simply" feels different. There are some very fundamental differences between the design and construction of the action that Kawai is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (RM3) and the one that Yamaha is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (GH3).

Some might say that the wooden keyboard in the Kawai "simply" feels different to the plastic one from Yamaha in the same way that a modern conventional grand action "simply" feels better than an old spinet drop action.

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re: ca63 vs ca93, I couldn't tell any difference. I couldn't feel the "let off feel" either - too subtle for me I guess. Apparently you can tell the difference in having the soundboard when playing at loud volumes. I did not test this when I was in the shop because my plan was always to use headphones at loud volumes so as not to annoy my neighbours...

What I did notice though was that the CA93 did sound better than the CA111. Now, it may have been that the CA111 that I played on wasn't set up correctly, but I always felt that the sound for the CA111 was coming out the back of it rather than being directed towards the player. I felt that the CA93 did not have this problem.

And I agree with Andree about the CA18 vs CA63. I couldn't tell the difference between the two in terms of sound. The keyboard in the CA63 is a lot heavier than the CA18, so I felt that and the addition of a midi port was worth the 50% price premium over the CA18. There is also more power on tap for the CA63, so it may be better at loud volumes than the CA18. But I didn't test that (see above).

Last edited by AndyT; 03/08/10 10:25 AM.
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Journey,

Yes, there are fundamental design differences between the two actions. One would expect that from the two companies. Your characterization of the differences is opinion. Fortunately the buying public disagrees with its dollars.

I have never been one to buy into the wooden key argument. I could care less what the material is. What I care about is how it feels and responds.

Some buyers prefer the touch of the Kawai RX series over that of the Yamaha C series grands. Fortunately for those selling Yamahas, not as many.


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You are probably right. The buying public with its dollars has also proved that McDonald's makes the world's best hamburgers. Marketing has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Marty Flinn
Journey,

Yes, there are fundamental design differences between the two actions. One would expect that from the two companies. Your characterization of the differences is opinion. Fortunately the buying public disagrees with its dollars.

I have never been one to buy into the wooden key argument. I could care less what the material is. What I care about is how it feels and responds.

Some buyers prefer the touch of the Kawai RX series over that of the Yamaha C series grands. Fortunately for those selling Yamahas, not as many.


Marty, what's your problem? Could it be that you're somehow biased? With someone writing such a comment I'm sure I won't buy your book since I expect something more objective. I'm not a complete idiot BTW wink

You know, the vast majority of people that I know and played the new Kawai is surprised by the very good action. Most of them are Yamaha owners. And no, the action is not only that good because it's wood (although is smells good smile ). It's the authentic length of the keys, and the whole mechanic is very similar to a grands mechanic, which is not (that much) the case with Yamaha action. I admit that you of course can get used to the GH3 action of Yamaha. When I didn't play acoustic uprights I played CLP DPs for the last 10 years in Sunday worship or other opportunities. I never tried a KAWAI. Now that I have tried CA63 at the local store, I was overwhelmed by the authentic keyboard action which is much more like an acoustic, IMHO. But again, everyone has different taste. And that Yamaha sells more DPs is a fact, but I'm sure it's not all about quality and sound and keyboard feel, it's a lot about marketing. Yamaha has a great marketing department. Once you are the no 1 on a market it's easy to sell stuff, because if one says that something is really good, many other people that have not a strong or even no opinion will adopt others recommendations. That's the way it works. It's a pity, but KAWAI has to learn it the hard way.

Last edited by kawaian; 03/08/10 05:46 PM.

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Kawaiian,

I have no problem. My affiliations and products I currently represent are clearly noted. I see that The Journey and you are entitled to your opinions, but I am not? I stated that Kawai makes a great product. On this or another current thread I also stated that IMO Kawai did not get did not get their do on this Forum. I represented Kawai products proudly for several years and know them well.

Where I departed was when Journey began to wax about the extra quality and care in the Kawai construction. I disagree with that contention. I also took issue with Journey's characterization of the Kawai action to that of a grand with the Yamaha GH3 action to that of a drop action spinet. I disagree with that contention as well. Of course all are entitled to their opinions. I just don't see why one cannot express his delight with a product without denegrating others.

You and Journey seem to be on a tag team to promote Kawai and denegrate Yamaha.

Buy or don't buy our book. I can live without the $1.23 I make on a copy. Read my comments again. I couldn't be more objective. I stated both were good instruments; they are. I stated that they are different in touch and tone; they are. I stated that some folks like one over the other; they do. I stated to the effect that Yamaha materially outsold Kawai; it does. You want to chalk it all up to marketing. That is your opinion. I believe the products speak for themselves.

I am happy you and Journey like Kawai products. I do too. I am not happy that you find regular ways to denegrate the competition. Why?


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@Marty,

everybody is entitled to his opinion. And it's perfectly alright for you to prefer the Yamaha action, personally, or to say it's just different compared to the Kawai action *in your opinion*.

However, you also wrote:

> Some buyers prefer the touch of the Kawai
> RX series over that of the Yamaha C series
> grands. Fortunately for those selling
> Yamahas, not as many.

Here you claim to know which touch buyers prefer in general. That is very far from just stating your own opinion about how the action compares between Kawai/Yamaha. You state that you know how all the buyers rate the Kawai/Yamaha action. That's where your post shows that you're quite biased.

Yes, Yamaha sells a lot more DPs than Kawai. But in case you don't know, there are many reasons why that could be the case. One important reason is that a DP consists of more than just the action. Reading through these forums, I've noticed that a lot of people seem to rate Kawai's actions very highly, but don't like the sound as much (at least that of older models). Many seem to prefer the bright Yamaha sound. Also since Yamaha sells more DPs to start with, shops are likely to display and advertise Yamaha DPs more actively - which will also result in higher sales for Yamaha. You see (I hope) that there are many reasons for why the sales numbers are what they are. You simply cannot interpret sales numbers to be the public's opinion about how the action of Yamaha/Kawai DPs compare. The max you could do (and even that would be debatable) is to claim that the sales numbers represent the public's opinion how the Yamaha/Kawai DPs compare *overall* in terms of bang for the buck. But even if you go that far, that does not say anything about how the public rates the quality of the action alone, or the quality of the speakers alone.

Or let me ask you this: Ford topped the car sales statistic in February 2010. Does that mean that the public thinks that Ford's engines are better than the engines of all other cars?

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Originally Posted by madshi
Yes, Yamaha sells a lot more DPs than Kawai. But in case you don't know, there are many reasons why that could be the case. One important reason is that a DP consists of more than just the action. Reading through these forums, I've noticed that a lot of people seem to rate Kawai's actions very highly, but don't like the sound as much (at least that of older models). Many seem to prefer the bright Yamaha sound. Also since Yamaha sells more DPs to start with, shops are likely to display and advertise Yamaha DPs more actively - which will also result in higher sales for Yamaha. You see (I hope) that there are many reasons for why the sales numbers are what they are. You simply cannot interpret sales numbers to be the public's opinion about how the action of Yamaha/Kawai DPs compare. The max you could do (and even that would be debatable) is to claim that the sales numbers represent the public's opinion how the Yamaha/Kawai DPs compare *overall* in terms of bang for the buck. But even if you go that far, that does not say anything about how the public rates the quality of the action alone, or the quality of the speakers alone.

Or let me ask you this: Ford topped the car sales statistic in February 2010. Does that mean that the public thinks that Ford's engines are better than the engines of all other cars?


Thanks, madshi, that's exactly the way I see this matter, but you're better in expressing this in the right words... smile

Anyway, for me it's questionable that someone who claims to have written a "must have" book about buying a piano sells specific brand pianos and is therefore for sure biased.

I also find this advertising statement in the signature a little bit disturbing:
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
I thought this forum has some rules not to do such kind of advertising. For this you can order ads...



Last edited by kawaian; 03/09/10 04:25 AM.

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Kawaian,

I wear more than one hat.

In our book we are very even handed about our opinions on brands and models. Most of the text is strictly fact based with very little editorial. Read it, then voice your opinion. A little unfair to characterize our writing without reading it. By all means don't buy it, read through it at the book store, or check it out at the library.

On the sales floor, I represent new Yamaha products, Bosendorfer, Schimmel, and some Samick pianos under the name Knabe. I am very clear about this in my signature. As is required for industry professionals on the Forum.

On the Forum, I vigorously defend what I perceive as unfair attacks on products that I sell and often those that I do not sell. I also jump into the fray when I think retailers are being unfaired against. A pet peave of mine are pricing posts that are unsubstantiated or without mitigating detail. I have been very clear and consistent on these points.

Regarding the part of my signature that refers to our book. Industry professionals are required on the Forum to state their product and other affiliations. You are the first to comment on this. Neither the moderators or the owner of the forum have complained to me about this. There are many others on the Forum with similar statements in their signatures, authors, technicians, teachers, consultants, etc.

I do not now represent Kawai, Petrof, Steinway and dozens of other brands that I have in the past. I regularly recommend these products on the Forum when I think they appropriate to the poster's needs.

Folks on this thread went beyond discussing their likes and appreciation about Kawai digital pianos. They began to present as fact that Kawai digital pianos were of better materials, and better and more careful and time consuming construction and assembly. Knowing these products very well, I disagreed. I have great respect for Kawai products and Kawai digital pianos specifically. I stated this. I presented the idea that they were different, not inherently better. Some like Hondas, some like Yamahas. Chevy vs. Ford, etc.

Madshi,
Thank you for explaining to me how folks decide on a purchase and how to interpret sales figures. My gosh, what was I thinking!


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Quote
I wouldn't agree that the Kawai "simply" feels different. There are some very fundamental differences between the design and construction of the action that Kawai is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (RM3) and the one that Yamaha is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (GH3).


I wouldn't agree that the Yamaha "simply" feels different. There are some very fundamental differences between the design and construction of the action that Yamaha is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (GH3) and the one that Kawai is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (RM3).

I wouldn't agree that the Roland "simply" feels different. There are some very fundamental differences between the design and construction of the action that Roland is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (PHA II) and the one that Yamaha is putting into a 2000 euro instrument (GH3).

ALL three of the above paragraphs are true.

They are different. But if you want to say which is better we may as well argue if red is a nicer color than blue.

Last edited by ChrisA; 03/09/10 07:15 PM.
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