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Hot hide glue vs wood glue #1388309 03/04/10 07:20 PM
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b3groover Offline OP
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My first experience in using hot hide glue was re-bushing a set of Wurlitzer electric piano keys for a friend. I really enjoyed the experience; the glue is much easier to work with in that situation than wood glue, imo.

I'm doing a baby grand refurb right now and I'm thinking of using hide glue on all the replacement felts.

Thoughts?


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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: b3groover] #1388329 03/04/10 07:50 PM
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BDB Offline
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There is nothing wrong with it if you enjoy using it.


Semipro Tech
Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: BDB] #1388479 03/04/10 11:31 PM
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Dale Fox Offline
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As someone else may wish to rebush those keys again in the future, your choice of hide glue will be much appreciated. Hide glue is easy to remove and cleanup after. Other glues, not so easy.


Dale Fox
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Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Dale Fox] #1388600 03/05/10 03:28 AM
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Kaydee7 Offline
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Yes you have chosen wisely my son... Hide Glue was, and is, used for a reason... and it sounds like you have learned that reason.

go forth and "technate"

73'
kd7
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Kaydee7] #1388636 03/05/10 05:16 AM
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wayne walker Offline
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has anyone used Franklyn Liquid Hide Glue for key bushings?


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: wayne walker] #1388657 03/05/10 06:12 AM
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Olek Offline
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It may work, but it is difficult to pour just a little on the cloth.

Liquid hide is a good glue.

The Vynil glue can be good, but it is said not follow the wood as well with seasonal changes, than hide glue, that is deeper in the wood cells.

Gluing Kotibe of mahagony ("greasy wood") on maple can only be done efficiently with hide glue.

The Titebond is crystallizing much, more than most Vinyl glue, so it harden more (most of carpenter glue are somehow soft by comparaison)


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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Olek] #1388790 03/05/10 10:12 AM
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Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
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Also, thick hide glue doesn't penetrate far into the felt, keeping it soft. Cold hide glue is fine, but has a short shelf life; check the Franklin website for info on how to decode the date stamps.

Bill Spurlock has a great writeup on how to work with hot hide glue on his site (www.spurlocktools.com).

--Cy--


Cy Shuster, RPT
www.shusterpiano.com
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Director, PTG Norfolk 2016 Technical Institute
http://convention.ptg.org
Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT] #1388813 03/05/10 10:35 AM
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I have been able to rejuvenate old, jello-like Franklin hide glue by putting the bottle in hot water, like decrystallizing honey.


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: UnrightTooner] #1388920 03/05/10 12:52 PM
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Cy is correct. The cold hide adhesives do have a shelf life. Sure Jeff, I agree with you about the reconstitution but how is the adhesive quality of that? I wonder if it is diminished somewhat....

Here is another good one for hide glue.

http://www.player-care.com/brougher_hide_glue.html

Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1388933 03/05/10 01:10 PM
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Les Koltvedt Offline
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My understanding - limited to written material- is once it's been cooked, it's good for about a week, then it starts to deteriorate.

Taken from Spurlock site:
Glue strength gradually declines with extended heating or repeated cooling and reheating. You can successfully reheat hide glue several times for non-critical work like gluing on dampers, back rail cloth, etc. (store covered in the refrigerator between uses). However, for high strength uses like wood working or hammer hanging, always mix it fresh.


Les Koltvedt
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Les Koltvedt] #1389028 03/05/10 03:01 PM
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Ok, so the hot hide glue is the best, if you have the tools and the talent, but barring that, is the Franklyn Liquid Hide Glue suitable long term for most felt and/or buckskin regluing applications? I've got the photosets from Chuck Behm of his restoration work and he used the hot hide glue for the key bushings, butts, and backcheck buckskins, but used the Titebond II for stuff like the back rail cloth, and other things like that.

I've also heard that Aileen's Tacky Glue is good for this too. Does anybody have an opinion on that?

Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: wayne walker] #1389079 03/05/10 04:20 PM
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Dale Fox Offline
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Originally Posted by wayne walker
has anyone used Franklyn Liquid Hide Glue for key bushings?


Don't do it. The urea that makes it stay liquid will also allow it time to soak through the bushing.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Dale Fox] #1389122 03/05/10 05:33 PM
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Grandpianoman Offline
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This is an interesting topic for me, as I have an Ampico roll playing system.

Here is what I know from my rebuilder. Hot hide glue does not work as well as plain white glue. Hot hide glue, after so many years, begins to deteriorate....as far as player pianos go, this is a fact. My rebuilder has been using white glue and when it calls for it, SOBO glue for all his pneumatics etc that are in a player piano. Where ever it calls for hot hide glue, he uses white or sobo. He has come back to repair or rebuild player pianos he did 30 years ago, and the white glue/Sobo glue that he used back then is still intact! When he comes across a piano that used hot hide glue, it's just the opposite. Leaks etc. He has been doing this type of work for over 45 years.

I know, there will be folks here who don't agree, but I am just relaying to you what he has told me. Repairing a player piano that used white glue is not any more difficult than a player piano that used hot hide glue. smile

Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Grandpianoman] #1389318 03/05/10 10:44 PM
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One aspect of choosing the correct glue is to determine which materials are being glued together, and then what the stresses on them are.

From your discussion of the player piano rebuilder, you mention problems of "leaks". I certainly wouldn't choose hot hide glue for leather bellows, etc. But it's been used for cabinet-making for hundreds of years, and it's very, very strong. (The strength varies from supplier, by the way.)

PVCE is the best for dissimilar materials, like ivory and wood (I believe that's what Aileen's is). Note that this is not the same glue used for PVC pipe.

If you've ever tried to pull out key bushings done with white glue, you'll curse the person who used it.

Steve Brady's "Field Guide" to repairs has a nice table of what glues (and lubricants) should be used where.

--Cy--


Cy Shuster, RPT
www.shusterpiano.com
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Director, PTG Norfolk 2016 Technical Institute
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT] #1389324 03/05/10 10:54 PM
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""Hot hide glue vs wood glue" ?????


Hot hide glue IS wood glue.

Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Supply] #1389339 03/05/10 11:32 PM
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John Pels Offline
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"Ok, so the hot hide glue is the best, if you have the tools and the talent, but barring that, is the Franklyn Liquid Hide Glue suitable long term for most felt and/or buckskin regluing applications?"

I think that the tools and talent thing need to be discussed. There are some really neat heated containers in which to heat hide glue. BUT...I don't own any and have used hide glue for 20+ years effectively. All you need is a hot plate set at a temp that would keep coffee hot and a small pan in which you can set a small glass jar filled with hide glue. Mix with water and bring it up to temp on the stove and transfer it to the hot plate. There really is no substitute in this endeavor that I have found nearly as effective and easy and inexpensive.

Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: John Pels] #1389350 03/06/10 12:32 AM
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Dave Stahl Offline
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Originally Posted by John Pels
"Ok, so the hot hide glue is the best, if you have the tools and the talent, but barring that, is the Franklyn Liquid Hide Glue suitable long term for most felt and/or buckskin regluing applications?"

I think that the tools and talent thing need to be discussed. There are some really neat heated containers in which to heat hide glue. BUT...I don't own any and have used hide glue for 20+ years effectively. All you need is a hot plate set at a temp that would keep coffee hot and a small pan in which you can set a small glass jar filled with hide glue. Mix with water and bring it up to temp on the stove and transfer it to the hot plate. There really is no substitute in this endeavor that I have found nearly as effective and easy and inexpensive.


Spurlock Hide Glue/hot pot

I bought this and it works great. I'd highly recommend using hot hide glue for bushing a whole set of keys. I used Spurlock's method for a couple of sets of bushings, and it was pretty easy. It's posted on the website.

For field repairs, I use elmer's wood glue. It dries quickly and comes in small applicators that fit in my toolkit nicely.

Cold hide glue works fine, but it takes too long to dry, and as mentioned before, the shelf life is limited.


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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Dave Stahl] #1389373 03/06/10 02:02 AM
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Do not use Titebond II. There is no excuse for using waterproof glue on felts anywhere in a piano.

I have been using Elmer's School Glue Gel for felts, and am very happy with it. It has sufficient setting time to be workable, is thick enough that it does not soak too far into the felt, stays flexible, is really strong, and washes away with water like it was never there.


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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: BDB] #1396957 03/16/10 12:28 PM
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Jim Moy Offline
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I made the Spurlock pot too. Cheap, and works great. I've got all his cauls too. Not as cheap, but just as functional.


Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
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Re: Hot hide glue vs wood glue [Re: Grandpianoman] #1397021 03/16/10 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by grandpianoman


I know, there will be folks here who don't agree, but I am just relaying to you what he has told me. Repairing a player piano that used white glue is not any more difficult than a player piano that used hot hide glue. smile


Man, I sure disagree with that!! I can't tell you how many times we encounter old player "rebuilds" where somebody years back used white glue...what a mess to try to seperate wood parts (pneumatics from boards, for instance) where the white glue just shreds the wood.

Most player techs would agree that hide glue is far better for the long term, in spite of hide glue's liklihood of failing...so does cloth...and getting it apart for subsequent restoration is just soooooo mch easier with hide glue.

FWIW

RPD


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