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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1385906
03/01/10 08:57 PM
03/01/10 08:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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dewster, may I suggest that you devise a way to score each test in an objective fashion? For example, ten categories (stretching, looping, layer switching etc.) each assessed from 1 to 10, then a total percentage score.

Just an idea.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1385917
03/01/10 09:08 PM
03/01/10 09:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 428
Europe, Poland
kiedysktos. Offline
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kiedysktos.  Offline
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Europe, Poland
And everything in one place, it's hard to go through all the pages smile


Roland FP-4
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1385923
03/01/10 09:22 PM
03/01/10 09:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Thanks to sandord over at http://forums.rolandclan.com we now have a DPBSD sample of the Roland K-RD700GX1 SuperNATURAL Piano Expansion card installed in a RD-700GX!

It tests pretty much the same as the Roland HP-307, which is good news. Again, many of the extra sounds like key up and pedal down aren't present in the DPBSD MP3 file for some reason.

Even though the file name indicates no sympathetic resonance, I do see and hear something like it in the DPBSD file. I assume it is the in-line effect built-in to the RD-700GX, which appears sophisticated as it has many parameters available to adjust.

---------------------------------------------
- Roland RD-700GX with K-RD700GX1 expansion -
---------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_RD-700GX_K-RD700GX1_SuperNATURAL-Grand_Piano_no_sympres.mp3
PROS:
- Beautiful long natural-sounding note decay (decay times on the order of Pianoteq).
- Large dynamic range (~47dB, vel=1:127).
- No audible looping.
- Visually, the notes look similar to conventional length attack samples seamlessly blended with something like long loop samples. Not clear what the process is.
- No visible or audible stretching, notes look random in the wave and phase views.
- No visible or audible velocity switching.
- Very smoothly blended timbre variation with velocity.
- Responds to partial pedaling, centerpoint of this effect is with pedal mostly down.
- Pedal up sounds like realistic string damping rather than a knock.
- Sympathetic resonance (in-line effect?).
CONS:
- Can't detect key up or pedal down sounds in DPBSD MP3 file for some reason.
OTHER:
- Probably good enough to realistically record solo.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -81dB.
- Some gated digital bleed-thru at the noise floor that comes and goes (PC?).
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-01.


Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1385926
03/01/10 09:26 PM
03/01/10 09:26 PM
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Posts: 142
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Originally Posted by dewster
In the "prices paid" thread someone bought one for $2390 USD in Minsk, Belarus.


It was me smile
Thanks very much Dewster. A few comments:
I can't say sample set is "smoothly blended" - actually layer switches are VERY audible and very annoying.
The damper resonance is not so unpleasant and fake to me, I like it, but it's a matter of taste.
I'm shocked about how short the samples are.
It would be very interesting to compare 330 with other models - 340/370/380.

And resulting sound is not so bad - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnzlmqJYVao but.. some things are annoying. 3 layers is too small and layer switching is too audible.
As I said, I'm planning to replace it, possibly with HP-307.


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.] #1385927
03/01/10 09:27 PM
03/01/10 09:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
And everything in one place, it's hard to go through all the pages smile

Everything here in terms of MP3s, pictures, and text in Courier font is at MediaFire.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1385941
03/01/10 09:51 PM
03/01/10 09:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bkmz
It was me smile

Oops!

Originally Posted by bkmz
Thanks very much Dewster. A few comments:
I can't say sample set is "smoothly blended" - actually layer switches are VERY audible and very annoying.

Hmm. Here is the frequency view of the layer test:

[Linked Image]

It does kind of look like the high frequency content levels off, then increases somewhat quickly. But after I make all the notes the same volume and listen to it it doesn't sound abrupt or anything.

Originally Posted by bkmz
The damper resonance is not so unpleasant and fake to me, I like it, but it's a matter of taste.

Perhaps it sounds better from the built-in speakers?

Originally Posted by bkmz
I'm shocked about how short the samples are.

Yes, rather short by DP standards, I was somewhat shocked myself. I kind of expected more with the Clavinova line. My wife played on one many years ago and really liked it.

Originally Posted by bkmz
It would be very interesting to compare 330 with other models - 340/370/380.

If someone sends me an MP3 and I'll definitely do so.

Originally Posted by bkmz
As I said, I'm planning to replace it, possibly with HP-307.

Whatever you replace it with, I would be interested to know what you like or dislike about it compared to the CLP330.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1385965
03/01/10 10:17 PM
03/01/10 10:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Roland HP-307 vs K-RD700GX1 Visual Comparison

Just how similar are the SuperNATURAL pianos in the Roland HP-307 and the K-RD700GX1 Piano Expansion card installed in a RD-700GX? Here are some pix where we can look for similar "fingerprints" in the sound. In all views, the HP-307 is on the top, K-RD700GX1 on the bottom.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of the note C2.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the note C3.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the note C4.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view the layer test.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view the stretch test.

They look and sound similar enough to assume that they are most likely the same sample sets. Those who are interested should download the MP3 files and compare them.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1385968
03/01/10 10:20 PM
03/01/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
dewster, may I suggest that you devise a way to score each test in an objective fashion? For example, ten categories (stretching, looping, layer switching etc.) each assessed from 1 to 10, then a total percentage score.

I'd love to do that. But I really don't know how to go about assigning 1-10 type numbers to most of those things.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1385974
03/01/10 10:32 PM
03/01/10 10:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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dewster, do you believe the MP3 compression could significantly affect the appearance of these graphs?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1386093
03/02/10 01:27 AM
03/02/10 01:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
dewster, do you believe the MP3 compression could significantly affect the appearance of these graphs?

No, both kawaian and I looked into that and didn't see anything substantially different between the wave and MP3 spectral views. Here is a link to that post.

It really makes sense that spectral phase and pan aren't affected much by the compression - you can't play with phase very much without disturbing the stereo image.

The files are in the archive if you want to play with them and see for yourself.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1386117
03/02/10 02:25 AM
03/02/10 02:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Okay, I see.

Originally Posted by dewster
The files are in the archive if you want to play with them and see for yourself.


Thank you, but I shall trust your better judgement.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1386224
03/02/10 06:52 AM
03/02/10 06:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
M
mucci Offline
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mucci  Offline
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M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by bkmz


Thanks very much to to bkmz, we now have a review of the Yamaha CLP-330, which is a Clavinova introduced in 2008. In the "prices paid" thread someone bought one for $2390 USD in Minsk, Belarus.

There are two files at the share point, one with the default sympathetic resonance, and another with it turned up to the max. I think the effect is typical for Yamaha i.e. rather poor - I don't like the default value, and turned up I find it obnoxious.

The sample lengths are fairly short, and the upper note loop lengths are way too short, you can hear the resonance repeating like an echo.

It's also stretched a bit more than I would expect for an instrument this new and of this caliber. I could actually hear the upper stretching, which is rather unusual in my experience.

During the layer tests the notes are very damped sounding. The MIDI file plays one note repeatedly, with one event right after the next, so perhaps the CLP-330 is confused as to what to do with conflicting note on/off commands. Something I should perhaps fix in the next version of the test file.

On the plus side, the layers are smoothly blended.

------------------
- Yamaha CLP-330 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_dr5.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to default of 5)
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_max_res.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to max)
- USB Flash drive (MIDI file), headphone out, Audiophile 2496, SAWStudio.
PROS:
- Huge dynamic range (~62dB, vel=1:127).
- A smoothly blended multi-layer sample set (Yamaha reports 3 layers).
- Something like layer switches barely visible @ vel=72,90 (spectral phase view).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Sympathetic resonance.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is somewhat fast, particularly the higher notes (~3/4 to 1/3 Pianoteq, lo to hi).
- Obviously looped.
- C8 & C9 loops too short, piano resonance sounds like quick repeated echos.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 2.2,1.9,1.9,0.8,1.3,0.8,0.6 seconds.
- Loop lengthes are (C2:C9): 1.0,0.8,0.5,0.3,0.2,0.2,0.15 seconds.
- Obviously stretched, most group transitions fairly audible, even the higher ones.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4,4,4,2,4,3,3,3,2,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,4,3,3 = 30 groups.
- Sympathetic resonance is unpleasant - echoy, reverby, resonant, fake.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Notes oddly damped during the velocity layer test.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -80dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-01


I'm a little bit puzzled...
I'm sorry to say this, but CLP-330 does not have any kind of damper oder sympathetic resonance: Damper resonance is introduced in CLP-340, whereas string resonance is introduced in CLP-380 which is the top of the line Yamaha CLP DP. Are we talking about the same model? This needs to be fixed so the comparison here keeps to be reliable...

confused


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1386229
03/02/10 07:05 AM
03/02/10 07:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
T
theJourney Offline
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T

Joined: Feb 2007
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Banned
Originally Posted by kawaian
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by bkmz


Thanks very much to to bkmz, we now have a review of the Yamaha CLP-330, which is a Clavinova introduced in 2008. In the "prices paid" thread someone bought one for $2390 USD in Minsk, Belarus.

There are two files at the share point, one with the default sympathetic resonance, and another with it turned up to the max. I think the effect is typical for Yamaha i.e. rather poor - I don't like the default value, and turned up I find it obnoxious.

The sample lengths are fairly short, and the upper note loop lengths are way too short, you can hear the resonance repeating like an echo.

It's also stretched a bit more than I would expect for an instrument this new and of this caliber. I could actually hear the upper stretching, which is rather unusual in my experience.

During the layer tests the notes are very damped sounding. The MIDI file plays one note repeatedly, with one event right after the next, so perhaps the CLP-330 is confused as to what to do with conflicting note on/off commands. Something I should perhaps fix in the next version of the test file.

On the plus side, the layers are smoothly blended.

------------------
- Yamaha CLP-330 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_dr5.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to default of 5)
- dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_max_res.mp3 (sympathetic damper resonance set to max)
- USB Flash drive (MIDI file), headphone out, Audiophile 2496, SAWStudio.
PROS:
- Huge dynamic range (~62dB, vel=1:127).
- A smoothly blended multi-layer sample set (Yamaha reports 3 layers).
- Something like layer switches barely visible @ vel=72,90 (spectral phase view).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Sympathetic resonance.
CONS:
- Note decay rate is somewhat fast, particularly the higher notes (~3/4 to 1/3 Pianoteq, lo to hi).
- Obviously looped.
- C8 & C9 loops too short, piano resonance sounds like quick repeated echos.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9): 2.2,1.9,1.9,0.8,1.3,0.8,0.6 seconds.
- Loop lengthes are (C2:C9): 1.0,0.8,0.5,0.3,0.2,0.2,0.15 seconds.
- Obviously stretched, most group transitions fairly audible, even the higher ones.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4,4,4,2,4,3,3,3,2,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,4,3,3 = 30 groups.
- Sympathetic resonance is unpleasant - echoy, reverby, resonant, fake.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
OTHER:
- Notes oddly damped during the velocity layer test.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -80dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-01


I'm a little bit puzzled...
I'm sorry to say this, but CLP-330 does not have any kind of damper oder sympathetic resonance: Damper resonance is introduced in CLP-340, whereas string resonance is introduced in CLP-380 which is the top of the line Yamaha CLP DP. Are we talking about the same model? This needs to be fixed so the comparison here keeps to be reliable...

confused


+1

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1386233
03/02/10 07:19 AM
03/02/10 07:19 AM
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Posts: 142
Belarus
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bkmz Offline
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it definitely has damper resonance
[Linked Image]


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1386237
03/02/10 07:32 AM
03/02/10 07:32 AM
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Munich, Germany
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mucci Offline
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Munich, Germany
Originally Posted by bkmz
it definitely has damper resonance


Then it's not a Yamaha CLP-330. It looks like a CLP-340.

Last edited by kawaian; 03/02/10 09:16 AM.

<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1386251
03/02/10 07:59 AM
03/02/10 07:59 AM
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Belarus
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bkmz Offline
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Kawaian, are you kidding? I made this photo by myself!

Ok, here is Yamaha site (press 'Specifications'):

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA...etail.html?CNTID=5020877&CTID=203500
Effects
Damper Resonance YES


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1386268
03/02/10 08:49 AM
03/02/10 08:49 AM
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theJourney Offline
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The string resonance is limited to the CLP-380 top of the line model.
If dewster reports that he is hearing it, then the question is what in fact he is hearing/seeing...or what Yamaha is letting people pay extra for on the very high priced CLP-380...

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1386272
03/02/10 08:56 AM
03/02/10 08:56 AM
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Munich, Germany
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mucci Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
Originally Posted by bkmz
Kawaian, are you kidding? I made this photo by myself!

Ok, here is Yamaha site (press 'Specifications'):

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA...etail.html?CNTID=5020877&CTID=203500
Effects
Damper Resonance YES


The US website of Yamaha ist extremely misleading in this respect! They should correct this immediately! If you have a closer look you see that it states the following on the CLP-330 site:

"All the subtle capabilities of a grand piano
Key-Off samples provide the delicate sound keys make when they are released. Stereo Sustain samples recreate the resonances of strings and soundboard when the damper pedal is pressed. String Resonance samples provided the rich tones produced when one hammered string causes related strings to ring out in harmony. Using these comprehensive gradations, CLP300 Series models can realistically reproduce the complex sounds of a grand piano.
* Key-Off and Stereo Sustain: CLP380, CLP370, CLP340. String Resonance: CLP380."

This is of course extremely misleading, because it raves about all the features of the piano and then, at the very end, states that it's not included...

Shame on you, Yamaha US!



<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1386282
03/02/10 09:21 AM
03/02/10 09:21 AM
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Posts: 142
Belarus
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bkmz Offline
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People, I'm talking about the DAMPER RESONANCE, not STRING RESONANCE! DAMPER RESONANCE is present on CLP330, STRING RESONANCE is on CLP380 only.


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1386290
03/02/10 09:33 AM
03/02/10 09:33 AM
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Munich, Germany
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mucci Offline
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Definitely not. Damper Resonance = Stereo Sustain Samples (on Yamahas Website). See my comment on my last post.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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