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Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385456 03/01/10 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kawaian
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

At the risk of sounding repetitive...it is simply the injection of a healthy dose of "reality"....nothing more.


Overdose, my dear, overdose... crazy


Okay...it is simply the injection of a healthy overdose of reality. grin

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385457 03/01/10 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by kawaian
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

At the risk of sounding repetitive...it is simply the injection of a healthy dose of "reality"....nothing more.


Overdose, my dear, overdose... crazy


Okay...it is simply the injection of a healthy overdose of reality. grin

Snazzy


We're almost there...

It is simply the injection of an unhealthy overdose of reality. grin

thumb


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
BazC #1385459 03/01/10 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BazC
Or the CP1, everyone was treating it like the keyboard equivalent of the second coming until Dewster posted his analysis and the reaction from some seemed to be "it's nothing special after all" Well I don't doubt it's using stretching and looping but I don't believe you can judge whether it's special or not until you've played one or at least heard one in the flesh!

The CP1 is a special case, the exception that proves the rule in a way. It sounds really nice in recordings, and up close they obviously did their homework with a relatively conventional sized sample set and compression techniques. I routinely provisionally recommend the P50 to people looking for something in the P155 range. But look at this stretching:

- Stretch distances: 3,3,4,4,4,2,4,3,1(x26),2,3,2,1,1,1,3,2,2,3,4,2,3,3,3 = 49 groups.

I can hear the lower transitions, so for me personally, buying something for our studio, this is in go/no go territory, but everyone knows I'm really picky.

Yamaha hyped this to the stars and came up with new pseudo-terminology for the piano voice, so expectations were high. It's a big step up from the P155 and similar, but it could benefit from more sample memory.

Originally Posted by BazC
What are these tests telling you? With the exception of the V-Piano all DPs use looping and most use stretching so at best you'll get an indication of how much stretching and looping is used. The problem is it doesn't tell you how audible that stretching and looping is, only your ears can do that.

People should download the MP3 and listen to it to see if they detect / tolerate / like what's going on.

Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385470 03/01/10 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kawaian


We're almost there...

It is simply the injection of an unhealthy overdose of reality. grin

thumb


Actually, for me, "we" were "there" with the "injection of a healthy dose of reality"...but sometimes it takes an unhealthy overdose to shake things up for people irrepressibly dependant on unproven test results. grin

Sort of like the hastening of "hitting bottom" for the persons so inclined. wink


Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385487 03/01/10 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

sometimes it takes an unhealthy overdose to shake things up for people irrepressibly dependant on unproven test results. grin


Anyone in mind?

BTW after reading Dewsters results of the CP1 I immediately cancelled my order grin No, I would never do so, and noone else I guess. Actually I would be really tempted by getting a CP1 - if it wouldn't be "just" a stage piano and the price tag would be cut half. It's just way too expensive for me. Nice keyboard and great sounding pianos!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385497 03/01/10 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kawaian
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

sometimes it takes an unhealthy overdose to shake things up for people irrepressibly dependant on unproven test results. grin


Anyone in mind?

BTW after reading Dewsters results of the CP1 I immediately cancelled my order grin No, I would never do so, and noone else I guess. Actually I would be really tempted by getting a CP1 - if it wouldn't be "just" a stage piano and the price tag would be cut half. It's just way too expensive for me. Nice keyboard and great sounding pianos!


Not really...these people tend to make themselves known pretty quickly, and the effect of a dose of reality is usually met with denial.

I'm very interested in a CP-5, an RD-700GX with the SN kit, and the next generation Avant Grand (N4?)...it will all depend on how they play and sound.

Ideally, I'd like to have either stage piano for gigs, plus the Avant Grand for home, but since I'm also considering a move to Canada, which I'm doing some investigation on this week by a short trip to the Maritimes, the acquisition and/or
examination of these instruments has no immediate importance until I have other affairs settled.

Snazzy




Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385508 03/01/10 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
I'm very interested in a CP-5, an RD-700GX with the SN kit, and the next generation Avant Grand (N4?)...it will all depend on how they play and sound.

Ideally, I'd like to have either stage piano for gigs, plus the Avant Grand for home, but since I'm also considering a move to Canada, which I'm doing some investigation on this week by a short trip to the Maritimes, the acquisition and/or
examination of these instruments has no immediate importance until I have other affairs settled.


I'm not in a search of a new DP since I just made my choice, however it's always interesting how things are moving forward.

So you're considering moving from Earth to Canada? grin BTW we had a great time watching the Vancouver Winter Games!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385516 03/01/10 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kawaian


So you're considering moving from Earth to Canada? grin BTW we had a great time watching the Vancouver Winter Games!


Yep...the people there, especially the East Coast, are more down to earth than most places I've been.

I've been on the road for most of my life, so moving isn't a big deal.

No matter where you go...there you are. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385524 03/01/10 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by kawaian


So you're considering moving from Earth to Canada? grin BTW we had a great time watching the Vancouver Winter Games!


Yep...the people there, especially the East Coast, are more down to earth than most places I've been.

I've been on the road for most of my life, so moving isn't a big deal.


So... What's your favorite: Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec - or Halifax!?


Originally Posted by snazzyplayer

No matter where you go...there you are. wink


Hehe... If my wife and daugthers are with me, everywhere is home!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385542 03/01/10 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kawaian


So... What's your favorite: Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec - or Halifax!?



Cape Breton Island...I like places where the living is laid back, the land is beautiful, and there are lots of musicians.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
Dr Popper #1385558 03/01/10 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Not really is actually about what I'm hearing with my ears isn't matching with Dewsters visual charts.

What in particular isn't matching? Just because you can see it in the spectral views doesn't necessarily mean you can hear it. But I endeavor to point these things out in my reviews; I'm not trying to fool anyone.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Its trying to expose various tricks used by manufacturers as if they are indeed just that however I would contend that that the results in the little charts are not matching up with what I'm hearing and in reality the CP1 has ZERO audible artifacts.

For old school sample size and a bit of new technique, the CP1 sounds pretty amazing. Does it crush, or even equal a good PC sampler? No.

Subjectivity has its place, but is it too much to ask for you to include a little perspective with yours?

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The test is confusing people by asking them to trust a unproven , uncontrolled, untested software based analysis tool above their own ears and playing experience.

Jesus, it's Adobe Audition, not something I wrote in my basement over a weekend. It's a professional tool created by a huge professional software company used by professional guys like you in professional studios. It's bog standard stuff anyway, the DFT/FFT has been around in one form or another for a couple of hundred years. If you don't like it, pay a visit to Gauss's grave and talk to him.

Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Knowing all too well Dewsters opinions about practically all commercial DP's prior to the test makes me very skeptical about it indeed and until the test itself is analyzed by a professional third party and tests are conducted under controlled conditions I will take the results with a grain of salt.

The fact that most DPs are crap is fairly self-evident. Almost anyone who is accustomed to a real piano, but must settle for a DP, knows that something very substantial is missing from the experience, and it isn't something a good set of headphones or speakers can generally cure. I believe most people who own DPs become less happy with them over time, due in large part to the same old lifeless, ear fatiguing, stretched sample loops playing over and over and over. Pros seem particularly unsatisfied, and go through gear like a fish through water, looking for anything that sounds even just a shade more realistic than what they already own. But while pros like you can afford to trade up once a year, the rest of us can't, so we are forced to use more technical savvy in our purchases.

There is a long history of this kind of impartial third-party "amateur" testing slowly morphing into impartial third-party "professional" testing in the PC hardware world - the difference is mainly ad revenue. Look at Tom's Hardware, or Anandtech - they started out benchmarking stuff, looking for truth wherever they could find it. All they have is their impartial reputation to stand on - their claim to fame actually. They'd get pretty upset if you ran around on the web saying they had an intentional bias or nefarious agenda or poor analysis techniques, particularly if you had no proof whatsoever to back those claims.

Someone has to fill the technical information void created by the manufacturers themselves. And, regardless of what you think about the SuperNATURAL sound, Roland at least has stepped up to the plate and addressed these things head-on.

Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
dewster #1385587 03/01/10 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster


The fact that most DPs are crap is fairly self-evident.


Well, it appears my point about you being biased was spot on.

Thanks, pal...you're your own worst enema. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385630 03/01/10 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Well, it appears my point about you being biased was spot on.

Thanks, pal...you're your own worst enema. wink

That AvantGrand of yours was so wonderful that after a couple of months you dumped it on some poor unsuspecting sap for a tidy profit.

Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
dewster #1385635 03/01/10 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Well, it appears my point about you being biased was spot on.

Thanks, pal...you're your own worst enema. wink

That AvantGrand of yours was so wonderful that after a couple of months you dumped it on some poor unsuspecting sap for a tidy profit.



It still doesn't change the fact that you are biased.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385637 03/01/10 03:18 PM
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OMG this is so ridiculous. How anyone can say "there is no stretching/looping (in CP1)" when its clearly visible???
Snazzyplayer, Dr Popper, what are you trying to say exactly? - please answer yes/no
- Mp3 is fake?
- Adoube Audition is fake?
- Dewster uses it in a wrong way?
- FFT is fake?
- Pictures are fake?
- Do you understand what "stretching" and "looping" means???

Last edited by bkmz; 03/01/10 03:19 PM.
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
bkmz #1385644 03/01/10 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bkmz


Snazzyplayer, Dr Popper, what are you trying to say exactly? -


Well, speaking for myself...

Firstly, there is bias on the part of the tester...before the test was even started, Dewster had already formed an opinion on most, if not all, digital pianos available to the public, which he expressed in several posts on this forum.

Secondly, there is the distinct possibility of inaccurate test material, the use of an untested software based analysis tool used by a self-professed amateur, and less than optimum controlled test conditions.

Any other questions? grin

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385646 03/01/10 03:39 PM
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snazzyplayer, you should set up a this as an autotext object, since you use it all the time. Or you should copyright these two statements. You could earn a lot of money with that!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
snazzyplayer #1385649 03/01/10 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by dewster


The fact that most DPs are crap is fairly self-evident.


Well, it appears my point about you being biased was spot on.

Thanks, pal...you're your own worst enema. wink

Snazzy


Well, if all DPs are considered the same crap, then it's not really biased... grin


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
mucci #1385650 03/01/10 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kawaian
snazzyplayer, you should set up a this as an autotext object, since you use it all the time. Or you should copyright these two statements. You could earn a lot of money with that!


It's a little trick that dear Gyro taught us...saves time, and helps those who haven't read the entire thread get a clue.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: AvantGrand quick first impression
bkmz #1385651 03/01/10 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bkmz
OMG this is so ridiculous. How anyone can say "there is no stretching/looping (in CP1)" when its clearly visible???
Snazzyplayer, Dr Popper, what are you trying to say exactly? - please answer yes/no
- Mp3 is fake?
- Adoube Audition is fake?
- Dewster uses it in a wrong way?
- FFT is fake?
- Pictures are fake?
- Do you understand what "stretching" and "looping" means???

I can answer this.

- Mp3 is fake? - Dr P says no, Snazzy says maybe - I got it directly from Lawrence and haven't modified it.
- Adoube Audition is fake? - Dr P acts like he never heard of it, Snazzy says it's untested.
- Dewster uses it in a wrong way? - Snazzy says it is likely, Dr P says it's all meaningless.
- FFT is fake? - They probably don't know what that is.
- Pictures are fake? - Dr P says they somehow don't match what he hears but hasn't elaborated, Snazzy calls them "squiggles".
- Do you understand what "stretching" and "looping" means??? - They go out of their way to not understand.

Trust me, you're banging your head against a wall of crazy.

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