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Phlebas - The Presto con fuoco section in No. 2 is intense, but blessedly short!

Thanks for your response !!

carey, the Presto con fuoco of the Ballade No. 2 is not short. The initial playing of it is, but the recapitulation lasts about one and a half minutes, far longer than the Presto con fuoco of the Ballade No. 1.

I would consider the entire ending segment of the Ballade No. 3 to be a Presto con fuoco of sorts. It's hard and fast enough.

I love #3 and #2. Not to diminish in any wise the famous #1 and #4, each rich with its own opulence and inspired artistry, but the Op. 47 and Op. 38 are my personal favorites.

Op. 47 is a current project of mine, in my opinion the most gay and whimsical of the set. It requires a fast and delicate touch beginning m. 116. The notes are "easy"; the artistry is not. The tumultuous C#-minor section beginning m 172 is likely saved from comparison difficultywise to the other Ballades' codas only on account of its brevity. It demands a variety of technical skills, but I share in the consensus that it is the easiest of the set.

Op. 38 I've played with, though not seriously. It is a future love-interest amongst the Ballades. I've given it the nickname "the Bipolar Ballade" (with apologies to Monsieur Fryderyk) on account of its clear-cut circumscription. The presto con fuoco, fast, angry though mercifully patterned runs proceed a tonal torrent leading to the LH runs. This, to me, evokes the desperation of the battlefield, with banners flying, war horses thundering, and casualties lying prostrate bleeding in the grass. I've not played through the lovely A-theme though can imagine a delicacy of voicing each finger perfectly is paramount.

Cannot comment on Op. 23 or Op. 52 other than to express my profound reverence for anyone who can play them.

The ending of Op. 47, i.e. the section marked by final return to Ab major, is not all that difficult for anyone who has played Chopin for awhile. It can be thought of as a sort of grandiose Valse. The preceding sections demand much more of the pianist, not only in sheer strength but in sensitivity.

Friedl - My bad !! I was referring specifically to the "Agitato" section (the final 36 measures of the Ballade) - not the Presto con fuoco - which begins 28 measures earlier. The Agitato is (in my opinion) the most challenging section of No. 2.

Do you find the f minor Ballade to be the most technically demanding, or simply the most interpretively demanding? I know that the double note passages are very difficult, but the double notes of #2 and the Coda of #1 are also hard- although perhaps not as hard as #4's Coda.

I've heard that but have never approached the Op. 52 in F-minor so am unqualified to answer. Others who are far more knowledgeable have on this thread rendered a general difficulty opinion, and the consistency of that consensus would incline me to believe the answer to both of your questions is "yes."

Does anyone who plays Op. 52 have an opinion on its difficulties in interpretive vs. technical demands?

I don't think that it is one of the easiest, I think that is the 2nd hardest, and "about" the same difficulty as the first one. However, while the 4th has short difficult sections throughout, the 1st one has a couple of sustained virtuosic parts that I found more difficult than anything in the 4th.

2 is the hardest, no question. It's awkward, difficult to interpret (well they all are but especially this one). It's not as pianistically written as the other three, even No. 4 and that makes it heck. After playing them all, that's what I think. Most people think I'm crazy..

From hardest: 2, 4, 1, 3.

I think it depends on the person, actually. For me, 1 and 3 are easy(er) to understand musically, 2 and 4 are (even more) difficult to understand musically. This is my personal breakdown, and may not apply to you or anyone else:



AngelinaPogorelich, I would be very inclined to agree with you.

Speaking of, does anyone have Cortot's edition of ballades in english?

For me working on No. 1, I can only comment on it.

It is most of all, a fairly easy piece.

But it has its challenges in there! For playing piano for almost 10 years, this song still proves to be a big challenge in those hard parts! Especially and most of all, the Presto Con Fucco (coda as I believe some call it)

The rest of it is coming together fairly well. Still needs work of course. But the first 1-4 or 5 pages is going pretty good and will soon start to become more clear and sound better.

___
I am still trying to open up with my new teacher. It has been 9 years with my first teacher! I was held back soo much and couldn't really let out my potential. But it is starting to really come together!

...........NOT.

Absolutely not.
If anything truly truly believes it's "easy," I can just about guarantee you that you're not doing a lot of what most people would feel the piece needs.

Because doing that is very, very hard.

If you mean just sort of playing the notes, especially if it's below the usual tempos, well okay, maybe. But I didn't think that's what we're talking about.

Just to give one example: Those scales at the end.
I can see that someone might say, it's just scales.

It's not.

To do any semblance of the musical and dramatic things that are needed with those scales is very, very hard. Even for the very most advanced pianists it's not "easy" -- it's still always a challenge.

Stuff like this makes my skin stand on end.

Ok let me rephrase.

It has its easy sections.

Fair enough.
I'd still cringe a little at that, because IMO even the "easy" sections are extremely challenging, if we want to make something beautiful and interesting of them.

But at least it doesn't make my skin stand on end.

Haha.

I have found it a challenge at first. But after really sitting down and working through it, I found it very, patternous (new word!) and -everything- fits together just so perfectly.

It's deceptively difficult. There are a few parts that I still can't get just right, even after a lot of work. Those last two scales are VERY difficult if you want to play them at speed, the last one especially... keeping both hands totally in sync, and keeping them a tenth apart is a real challenge. The octaves... not so much (at least to me). The presto con fuoco part of the coda is also extremely hard to play at tempo. The scherzo-ish section is also very difficult to play at speed while remaining light. There are a few other really tricky spots that take a lot more time than you'd expect... and they have to be surrounded by all of these extremely delicate passages that really push your musicality.

The point is, if you want to get out of the piece what was intended, its enormously difficult. It may not be so hard to pick it apart and play each part separately, but forming all of those parts into a cohesive idea with few technical mistakes is a large undertaking.

Thats what makes Chopin just that amazing to play, hear and feel.

Reminder..... we need to stop using the "S" word when referring to a piano composition

I have yet to see a set of compositions that parallel the popularity of Chopin's ballades. Some could argue that the two sets of his etudes are good as well, but there are some in there that are less popular and less heralded. Same with the nocturnes.