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#1370032 - 02/10/10 09:57 AM Impressions of the Kawai CA63  
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Hi,

Yesterday I was at the local music store and tried out the new Kawai CA63. Here are my impressions:

Before I tried the piano I was absolutely sure that the Kawai CA63 was the piano I would go for and buy. This visit was only meant to confirm my decision and during the trial I used a pair of good headphones, Sennheiser HD595. My first impression was that the keyboard had a better fit and was not as wobbly as in the previous models. As been written on this forum already, the keys were also a bit heavier compared to the AWA Grand PRO II. Fast repetitions were possible and the summary is that the keyboard was good and approved.

Now to the bad side, the sound. In my opinion I'm very disappointed about the sound (talking about the concert grand 1). I can't understand why Kawai hasn't improved the piano sound to an acceptable level of quality. If you compare the sound in the CA93/63 with the sound used in the previous models you will soon find that not much has been changed. If you take it one step further and compare it with the new HP-series by Roland, you get angry. Why can't Kawai increase their sound technology to the same standard as Roland for example, they have a long way to go... I also want to announce that we are now only talking about the main piano sound, if you want me to say something about the other sounds, I think this may illustrate what I feel - ???

Another important point is that Kawai declares that their "virtual technician" allows you to change the settings to your taste. I tried this and I must say that even if you changed a parameter from the lowest value to the highest there was not much happening. I could also observe some "bugs" in the sounds, as been written about in another thread on this forum

I think it's very disturbing to have a good looking piano with good keyaction in front of you but on the same time a piano with a technology anno 1990. My summary is, good keyaction, good look, good physical quality, very bad sound and software technology.

/Andrée


Last edited by Andree; 02/10/10 10:00 AM.
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#1370037 - 02/10/10 10:09 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Andree,

It would also be very helpful if you have the chance to give us your side by side impressions comparing both to Yamaha and Roland here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

Especially if you make a purchase decision.

#1370042 - 02/10/10 10:20 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]  
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@Andree, I can only partly share your opinion, since sound is IMHO very much a matter of taste. Regarding the sound flaws I fully agree and hope that KAWAI does fix this very soon.

"Virtual Technician": This is a buzz word and just summarizes all the parameters that modifies the sound. And yes, most changes to settings are actually very obvious, including damper and string resonance. But I also recognized that there is no difference in sound whether you set key-off to "off" or at the highest possible level, and I really tried hard to hear a difference. I suspect this is just a fake...

I personally actually really like Concert Grand 1, with damper resonance = 8 and string resonance = 6, key-off set to "off" (to minimize resonance flaw, see other thread...). This produces a beautiful full sound, if only the cracking wasn't there.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
#1370156 - 02/10/10 12:51 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]  
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I don't know if I dislike the sound of the CA series, but certainly I have played on a CA18 then a CA63 and then back again, and I couldn't tell a difference between the sound.

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#1370263 - 02/10/10 03:37 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Originally Posted by Andree
Before I tried the piano I was absolutely sure that the Kawai CA63 was the piano I would go for and buy. This visit was only meant to confirm my decision and during the trial I used a pair of good headphones, Sennheiser HD595.

Somewhat like you, I was prepared to really like the Yamaha P155, and to purchase one practically sight unseen for my wife's church. I'm very glad I didn't.

Originally Posted by Andree
In my opinion I'm very disappointed about the sound (talking about the concert grand 1). I can't understand why Kawai hasn't improved the piano sound to an acceptable level of quality. If you compare the sound in the CA93/63 with the sound used in the previous models you will soon find that not much has been changed.

Over on the DPBSD thread I recently analyzed the sounds of a Yamaha P120 (2001) and P155 (2009). I was fairly shocked to discover that, other than a bit better looping and fairly seamless velocity layer blending in the P155, the really important factors for sound, such as the actual sample length and note stretching, are virtually identical between the two. The longest sample length in both is ~3 seconds, which is way too short IMO, and the P155 samples are actually stretched more than the P120.

In the eight years between the two models computational hardware has grown greatly in complexity, while the prices have dropped substantially. Why the P155 behaves and costs like it was made in 2001 is a complete mystery to me.

Originally Posted by Andree
I think it's very disturbing to have a good looking piano with good keyaction in front of you but on the same time a piano with a technology anno 1990. My summary is, good keyaction, good look, good physical quality, very bad sound and software technology.

My sentiments exactly.

#1370331 - 02/10/10 04:49 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: dewster]  
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I'm not very surprised that the sound is not very different. But even if it doesn't sound very good, I think it is more natural than the roland one. I tried HP 302 recently, and I didn't liked the sound very much. The kawai sound has the advantage of not being monotonous.

Even when I compared a hp 203 with an old CA 5 I found that the sound of the CA 5 was far more piano like. Generally speaking, the kawai sound last longer, and is less artificial because it is less perfect.

I will always prefer a DP with good action and a less pleasant sound than the contrary. It's just a shame that kawai hasn't improved the sound to feel less like a recorded one, as I imagine it still sounds (try other piano sounds, someone are better in my opinion, I use jazz grand or modern grand in my CA 51 and I found that concert was good too in the ca 91.

What about the new black keys feeling, and isn't there to much contrast with the white ones now ?

Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?

#1370359 - 02/10/10 05:25 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: sieg66]  
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Originally Posted by sieg66
Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?


I didn't observe any strange with the black keys so I think this is not an issue. As you say the keyboard is less sluggish than before, actually it is not sluggish at all =). In this aspect Kawai has made a fantastic work, the keyboard is superb if you ask me.

#1370375 - 02/10/10 05:38 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Originally Posted by Andree
Originally Posted by sieg66
Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?


I didn't observe any strange with the black keys so I think this is not an issue. As you say the keyboard is less sluggish than before, actually it is not sluggish at all =). In this aspect Kawai has made a fantastic work, the keyboard is superb if you ask me.


Fully agree! The only issues are the flaws in the sound! Hope there is hope in respect of firmware updates!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
#1370750 - 02/11/10 06:11 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]  
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For the benefit of those who may read this thread in the future, a response to the 'crackling' sound issue that kawaian refers to above, has been posted in the corresponding bug report thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1370738/#Post1370738

Kind regards,
James
x



Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1370757 - 02/11/10 06:50 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]  
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I tried both Kawai CA-51 and HP 207 - I havent tried the 307 or the CA63. Are there big differences to be excepted? In my ears the "old gen" Kawai sounded better, I think less monotony is a good description of what I "sensed" when I tried both next to each other. I have noticed no sound flaws in either products, however.

Last edited by Svendsen; 02/11/10 07:00 AM.

Svendsen - adult beginner who realized that piano was that essential thing missing in his life.
#1371824 - 02/12/10 02:54 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Svendsen]  
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Thanks for these feedbacks. Compared to hp 207, the kawai sound lasts longer, more like a real piano. The high and low register is rather good, it's the medium range that sounds deaf and somewhat artificial, at least in ca 51 model.

Kawaian and Andree, are the white keys not to hard to play when you play them on the back, especially now compared to the improved black ones ? I think that it's the black ones that needed the most to be improved regarding uniformity, but the white may feel hard to play on the back at some moments, and it would be nice if future kawai models could use longer keys (if this issue is still there).

Is the new key surface satisfactory ?

#1371849 - 02/12/10 03:16 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: sieg66]  
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Sieg66, maybe it's not necessary to have longer keys just to make it easier to depress. I think Kawai knows how to do this, an easy way to do it is to reduce the weight of the hammers. If there is something I really trust in when talking about Kawai, it is their keyboards.

The new key surface is identical with the surface used by Yamaha, more or less

#1371939 - 02/12/10 04:53 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Andrée, did you tried the CA-63 in France ? I'm from France too and would like to try it. Which store was it ? Was it in Paris ?

Thank you.

#1372065 - 02/12/10 08:05 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: worov]  
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Thanks Andree. But on my CA 51 the white keys are not similar to those of an acoustic grand. Roland does better regarding this aspect, and I indeed find the hp serie easier to play in the back of the keyboard.

Worov j'habite à Paris aussi, et aucun magasin ne les a pour l'instant je pense. Ca devrait être dans quelques semaines, j'espère en fin de mois.

#1372391 - 02/13/10 06:09 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: worov]  
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Worov, no I didn't try it in France, I presume that my name has been a contributing part which makes you think that I'm a frenchman

Last edited by Andree; 02/13/10 06:16 AM.
#1372401 - 02/13/10 07:20 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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frenchWOman wink

#1372404 - 02/13/10 07:32 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: sieg66]  
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smile

#1372603 - 02/13/10 01:11 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Since I'm very disappointed with the piano sound in the new Kawai CA63, perhaps a piano software would be a good alternative. I like the keyboard very much so I would like to hear your experience about a setup like this. Is it possible to use Kawai for this intention? Does it deliver all the 127 velocity steps without any restrictions?

#1372883 - 02/13/10 07:39 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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I once tried pianoteq demo and my CA 51 and from what I remember delivered a fair amount of different velocities. The issue was rather that I get a tiny sound using my altec lansing 621 2.1 kit. I could have tried to redirect the sound from the sound card to the DP but I didn't have a cable for. It could also be pianoteq that hasn't a very gorgeous sound.

Sincerely, I tried hp 302, and despite I'm not sure it has the same sound generator than hp 307, it wasn't a revolution. I don't think that hp 307 keyboard will be a revolution too, the V piano keyboard is not bad but, like the roland sound, is to synthetic to feel as if you are in front of a real piano.

#1373680 - 02/14/10 03:53 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: sieg66]  
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Okey
Another thing I observed when I tried the CA63 was that the sound generator repeated some tones like an ecco. Has anyone else made this observation?

#1373788 - 02/14/10 06:04 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Andree, did you accidentally turn on one of the 'Delay' effects?

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1374320 - 02/15/10 03:14 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Originally Posted by Andree
Since I'm very disappointed with the piano sound in the new Kawai CA63, perhaps a piano software would be a good alternative. I like the keyboard very much so I would like to hear your experience about a setup like this. Is it possible to use Kawai for this intention? Does it deliver all the 127 velocity steps without any restrictions?


This might be a good time for KAWAI James to chip in. He has mentioned earlier that the CA63/CA93 have extensive connectivity options with the box under the keyboard on the front.

Can we connect MIDI cables and audio cables between the CAx3 and our audio interface of our PC running Pianoteq and have the sound of Pianoteq playing through the speakers and/or headphones attached to the Kawai piano?

This would seem to offer a way to have a stable keyboard with superior action together with a very expressive and alive sounding piano tone generator with realistic string resonance, etc.

If you wanted an all in one solution for the living room it is not perfect, but if you want a very high quality best of breed silent practice instrument that you keep in your den, it might be just the ticket.

Last edited by theJourney; 02/15/10 03:15 AM.
#1374353 - 02/15/10 04:11 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]  
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Hello theJourney,

Quote
This might be a good time for KAWAI James to chip in. He has mentioned earlier that the CA63/CA93 have extensive connectivity options with the box under the keyboard on the front.

Can we connect MIDI cables and audio cables between the CAx3 and our audio interface of our PC running Pianoteq and have the sound of Pianoteq playing through the speakers and/or headphones attached to the Kawai piano?


In a word, yes.

Here is a shot of the CA93/CA63 jack panel (this image is from the KAWAI Europe website, however I can upload a larger version if necessary)

[Linked Image]

And here is the connections illustration from page pp.88 of the owner's manual (my apologies in advance if this breaks any of the forum rules):

[Linked Image]

As you can see, both the CA93 and CA63 feature the full selection of Line in, Line out, MIDI, and USB connectors, potentially allowing the instrument to be used as both a MIDI controller and speaker system for a computer-based VST.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1374386 - 02/15/10 06:04 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]  
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Thank you James,
To answer your first question I played the piano with the basic settings, applied when you turn on the piano the very first time.
Regarding MIDI, it was great to hear that it is possible to run programs such as Pianoteq. I read in another thread however, that some digital pianos don't offer 127 velocity steps for the MIDI sensors inside the keyboard. It would be great to hear if Kawai uses all the 127 steps in their pianos or if they are limited to less?

#1375821 - 02/16/10 06:52 PM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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Anyone?

#1376155 - 02/17/10 02:30 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]  
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#1376164 - 02/17/10 03:00 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]  
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Andree,

Quote
I read in another thread however, that some digital pianos don't offer 127 velocity steps for the MIDI sensors inside the keyboard.


May I ask where you read this? Forums such as PianoWorld can be a terrific source of information, but it's necessarily always correct.

Quote
It would be great to hear if Kawai uses all the 127 steps in their pianos or if they are limited to less?


According to the 'MIDI Implementation Chart' on page pp.94 of the owner's manual, the CA93/CA63 transmits V=1-127 Note On levels.
This is true of all KAWAI digital pianos, and I expect it's probably also the case for other instrument manufactures too.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1376259 - 02/17/10 08:48 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]  
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I went back for another play on the CA63, and I have decided to get one. I always fancied a CA18, and I like the sound of it but was put off by the lack of midi. So the fact that the CA63 sounds the same to me is great. Also when you have played on the CA63 the feel of the CA18 is less impressive. If I was being ultra picky I would say I still prefer the look of the CA18. - I prefer the straight rather than tapered legs, but the feel trumps that.

They had a Clavinova clp340 (I think) too. This was the model that I had originally fancied (after just looking at specs and the pictures) 6 months ago when I first started looking for a dp. I had a go on it for fun. It felt terrible. I'm so glad I have spent time trying all the different models. A lesson there I think for people who just buy on spec.

I thought about waiting for a go on a hp305, but the action is the same as the old hp207, which I disliked. The hp307 has a new action but I don't want to spend an extra £700 on a dp, so I have ruled that one out without playing on it.

#1376261 - 02/17/10 08:54 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: AndyT]  
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Congratulations on your new piano!

It is good to see people actually purchasing them rather than ordering them about. smile

Don't forget to update the prices paid thread!

Last edited by theJourney; 02/17/10 08:55 AM.
#1376263 - 02/17/10 08:56 AM Re: Impressions of the Kawai CA63 [Re: AndyT]  
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Originally Posted by AndyT
They had a Clavinova clp340 (I think) too. This was the model that I had originally fancied (after just looking at specs and the pictures) 6 months ago when I first started looking for a dp. I had a go on it for fun. It felt terrible. I'm so glad I have spent time trying all the different models. A lesson there I think for people who just buy on spec.


This was exactly how I did my decision. I also was at first convinced that the CLP-340 is the ultimate for the money, but just as long as I didn't try the CA-51. I was overwhelmed by the feel of the keyboard action, and decided to buy one. Then I got the information about the just to be released CA-63, and there it was! I love it!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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