2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Spring Into Sound Sale
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
35 members (Djengis, DaveX, EB5AGV, ColonelBogey, clothearednincompo, FloRi89, DPPianoPhil, bluebilly, bilb, Falsch, 11 invisible), 342 guests, and 456 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Hi,

Yesterday I was at the local music store and tried out the new Kawai CA63. Here are my impressions:

Before I tried the piano I was absolutely sure that the Kawai CA63 was the piano I would go for and buy. This visit was only meant to confirm my decision and during the trial I used a pair of good headphones, Sennheiser HD595. My first impression was that the keyboard had a better fit and was not as wobbly as in the previous models. As been written on this forum already, the keys were also a bit heavier compared to the AWA Grand PRO II. Fast repetitions were possible and the summary is that the keyboard was good and approved.

Now to the bad side, the sound. In my opinion I'm very disappointed about the sound (talking about the concert grand 1). I can't understand why Kawai hasn't improved the piano sound to an acceptable level of quality. If you compare the sound in the CA93/63 with the sound used in the previous models you will soon find that not much has been changed. If you take it one step further and compare it with the new HP-series by Roland, you get angry. Why can't Kawai increase their sound technology to the same standard as Roland for example, they have a long way to go... I also want to announce that we are now only talking about the main piano sound, if you want me to say something about the other sounds, I think this may illustrate what I feel - ???

Another important point is that Kawai declares that their "virtual technician" allows you to change the settings to your taste. I tried this and I must say that even if you changed a parameter from the lowest value to the highest there was not much happening. I could also observe some "bugs" in the sounds, as been written about in another thread on this forum

I think it's very disturbing to have a good looking piano with good keyaction in front of you but on the same time a piano with a technology anno 1990. My summary is, good keyaction, good look, good physical quality, very bad sound and software technology.

/Andrée


Last edited by Andree; 02/10/10 10:00 AM.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Andree,

It would also be very helpful if you have the chance to give us your side by side impressions comparing both to Yamaha and Roland here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

Especially if you make a purchase decision.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
@Andree, I can only partly share your opinion, since sound is IMHO very much a matter of taste. Regarding the sound flaws I fully agree and hope that KAWAI does fix this very soon.

"Virtual Technician": This is a buzz word and just summarizes all the parameters that modifies the sound. And yes, most changes to settings are actually very obvious, including damper and string resonance. But I also recognized that there is no difference in sound whether you set key-off to "off" or at the highest possible level, and I really tried hard to hear a difference. I suspect this is just a fake...

I personally actually really like Concert Grand 1, with damper resonance = 8 and string resonance = 6, key-off set to "off" (to minimize resonance flaw, see other thread...). This produces a beautiful full sound, if only the cracking wasn't there.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 120
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 120
I don't know if I dislike the sound of the CA series, but certainly I have played on a CA18 then a CA63 and then back again, and I couldn't tell a difference between the sound.

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by Andree
Before I tried the piano I was absolutely sure that the Kawai CA63 was the piano I would go for and buy. This visit was only meant to confirm my decision and during the trial I used a pair of good headphones, Sennheiser HD595.

Somewhat like you, I was prepared to really like the Yamaha P155, and to purchase one practically sight unseen for my wife's church. I'm very glad I didn't.

Originally Posted by Andree
In my opinion I'm very disappointed about the sound (talking about the concert grand 1). I can't understand why Kawai hasn't improved the piano sound to an acceptable level of quality. If you compare the sound in the CA93/63 with the sound used in the previous models you will soon find that not much has been changed.

Over on the DPBSD thread I recently analyzed the sounds of a Yamaha P120 (2001) and P155 (2009). I was fairly shocked to discover that, other than a bit better looping and fairly seamless velocity layer blending in the P155, the really important factors for sound, such as the actual sample length and note stretching, are virtually identical between the two. The longest sample length in both is ~3 seconds, which is way too short IMO, and the P155 samples are actually stretched more than the P120.

In the eight years between the two models computational hardware has grown greatly in complexity, while the prices have dropped substantially. Why the P155 behaves and costs like it was made in 2001 is a complete mystery to me.

Originally Posted by Andree
I think it's very disturbing to have a good looking piano with good keyaction in front of you but on the same time a piano with a technology anno 1990. My summary is, good keyaction, good look, good physical quality, very bad sound and software technology.

My sentiments exactly.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
I'm not very surprised that the sound is not very different. But even if it doesn't sound very good, I think it is more natural than the roland one. I tried HP 302 recently, and I didn't liked the sound very much. The kawai sound has the advantage of not being monotonous.

Even when I compared a hp 203 with an old CA 5 I found that the sound of the CA 5 was far more piano like. Generally speaking, the kawai sound last longer, and is less artificial because it is less perfect.

I will always prefer a DP with good action and a less pleasant sound than the contrary. It's just a shame that kawai hasn't improved the sound to feel less like a recorded one, as I imagine it still sounds (try other piano sounds, someone are better in my opinion, I use jazz grand or modern grand in my CA 51 and I found that concert was good too in the ca 91.

What about the new black keys feeling, and isn't there to much contrast with the white ones now ?

Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Originally Posted by sieg66
Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?


I didn't observe any strange with the black keys so I think this is not an issue. As you say the keyboard is less sluggish than before, actually it is not sluggish at all =). In this aspect Kawai has made a fantastic work, the keyboard is superb if you ask me.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Originally Posted by Andree
Originally Posted by sieg66
Doesn't he firmer keytouch result in an excessive first load on the keys or is it still natural ? Is the keyboard less slugish than before ?


I didn't observe any strange with the black keys so I think this is not an issue. As you say the keyboard is less sluggish than before, actually it is not sluggish at all =). In this aspect Kawai has made a fantastic work, the keyboard is superb if you ask me.


Fully agree! The only issues are the flaws in the sound! Hope there is hope in respect of firmware updates!


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
For the benefit of those who may read this thread in the future, a response to the 'crackling' sound issue that kawaian refers to above, has been posted in the corresponding bug report thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1370738/#Post1370738

Kind regards,
James
x



Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 34
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 34
I tried both Kawai CA-51 and HP 207 - I havent tried the 307 or the CA63. Are there big differences to be excepted? In my ears the "old gen" Kawai sounded better, I think less monotony is a good description of what I "sensed" when I tried both next to each other. I have noticed no sound flaws in either products, however.

Last edited by Svendsen; 02/11/10 07:00 AM.

Svendsen - adult beginner who realized that piano was that essential thing missing in his life.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
Thanks for these feedbacks. Compared to hp 207, the kawai sound lasts longer, more like a real piano. The high and low register is rather good, it's the medium range that sounds deaf and somewhat artificial, at least in ca 51 model.

Kawaian and Andree, are the white keys not to hard to play when you play them on the back, especially now compared to the improved black ones ? I think that it's the black ones that needed the most to be improved regarding uniformity, but the white may feel hard to play on the back at some moments, and it would be nice if future kawai models could use longer keys (if this issue is still there).

Is the new key surface satisfactory ?

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Sieg66, maybe it's not necessary to have longer keys just to make it easier to depress. I think Kawai knows how to do this, an easy way to do it is to reduce the weight of the hammers. If there is something I really trust in when talking about Kawai, it is their keyboards.

The new key surface is identical with the surface used by Yamaha, more or less

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
W
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
W
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 178
Andrée, did you tried the CA-63 in France ? I'm from France too and would like to try it. Which store was it ? Was it in Paris ?

Thank you.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
Thanks Andree. But on my CA 51 the white keys are not similar to those of an acoustic grand. Roland does better regarding this aspect, and I indeed find the hp serie easier to play in the back of the keyboard.

Worov j'habite à Paris aussi, et aucun magasin ne les a pour l'instant je pense. Ca devrait être dans quelques semaines, j'espère en fin de mois.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Worov, no I didn't try it in France, I presume that my name has been a contributing part which makes you think that I'm a frenchman

Last edited by Andree; 02/13/10 06:16 AM.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
frenchWOman wink

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
smile

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Since I'm very disappointed with the piano sound in the new Kawai CA63, perhaps a piano software would be a good alternative. I like the keyboard very much so I would like to hear your experience about a setup like this. Is it possible to use Kawai for this intention? Does it deliver all the 127 velocity steps without any restrictions?

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
I once tried pianoteq demo and my CA 51 and from what I remember delivered a fair amount of different velocities. The issue was rather that I get a tiny sound using my altec lansing 621 2.1 kit. I could have tried to redirect the sound from the sound card to the DP but I didn't have a cable for. It could also be pianoteq that hasn't a very gorgeous sound.

Sincerely, I tried hp 302, and despite I'm not sure it has the same sound generator than hp 307, it wasn't a revolution. I don't think that hp 307 keyboard will be a revolution too, the V piano keyboard is not bad but, like the roland sound, is to synthetic to feel as if you are in front of a real piano.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
A
Andree Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 257
Okey
Another thing I observed when I tried the CA63 was that the sound generator repeated some tones like an ecco. Has anyone else made this observation?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
One piece to send to outer space
by chopinetto - 04/14/21 09:31 PM
G# ?
by risusSardonicus - 04/14/21 08:01 PM
Kawai baby grand with silent option
by Jay Gunderson - 04/14/21 06:24 PM
Slur then no slur
by Sebs - 04/14/21 05:08 PM
On-Site "Hitch-Pin" fix???
by Duaner - 04/14/21 03:29 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,290
Posts3,082,526
Members101,196
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5