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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1379030
02/20/10 07:07 PM
02/20/10 07:07 PM
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Europe, Poland
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This thread looks like clearly technical stuff, though it made me wondering about some aspects of my reaction to modern DP's sound. For example, in some DP's many notes were very unnatural to my ears (specially the lowest).
And this project was able to explain the reason of my psychoacoustic impression on those pianos - stretching... now when I know, what to look for, I can say WHY some pianos sounded so unreal to me. Just listen to some mp3s from this project page in a moment when all notes are played one after another chromatically... you can clearly hear stretching; and it's so clear and obvious, that no matter is it .mp3 or .wav; it makes many notes sound dead. And when I hear Roland HP307, every note sound great, I hear no stretching... no groups of notes, every one lives it's own way. Of course other factors, as looping or resonance has important impact on overall DP impression, but my conclusion is: this technical analysis (even if it has it's mistakes) can be very useful and educational.


Roland FP-4
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.] #1379235
02/21/10 12:38 AM
02/21/10 12:38 AM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
This thread looks like clearly technical stuff, though it made me wondering about some aspects of my reaction to modern DP's sound. For example, in some DP's many notes were very unnatural to my ears (specially the lowest).
And this project was able to explain the reason of my psychoacoustic impression on those pianos - stretching... now when I know, what to look for, I can say WHY some pianos sounded so unreal to me.

Same here. It's actually kind of a relief to know just what it is I'm hearing that sounds good or bad, rather than having vague feelings about audible clues. Listening and seeing combined is an amazing thing, it really cuts through the hype.

Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
Just listen to some mp3s from this project page in a moment when all notes are played one after another chromatically... you can clearly hear stretching; and it's so clear and obvious, that no matter is it .mp3 or .wav; it makes many notes sound dead.

These are generally gross issues in the sound, easily visible and generally audible in either file format. Most of the fine visual "fingerprint" detail is preserved in the MP3, which makes more sense to me now. The MP3 compression process really can't play too many games with the L & R phase without messing up the stereo field.

Originally Posted by kiedysktos.
...this technical analysis (even if it has it's mistakes) can be very useful and educational.

Honestly, I am trying very hard to be as accurate as I can, and to treat every sample fairly, regardless of manufacturer. I do not work nor have I worked in the music industry (and probably never will - at this point I'm probably blacklisted from that club laugh ). I'm just some unemployed engineer in NJ with too much time on his hands, but literally anyone can do this and see it for themselves. It's not rocket science in the slightest.

Please check my results. Download the Adobe Audition trial and open one of the DPBSD MP3 files - you may want to start with a particularly egregious offender for training, such as the Roland JV-1010. Look at it using the three different views: Waveform, Spectral Pan, Spectral Phase (I find the Spectral Frequency view to be not very useful for this) while adjusting the horizontal zoom (and sometimes vertical for the Waveform view). Try also playing back the file while looking at it, to better correlate what you are seeing with the sound. That's 99% of all I'm doing.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1379399
02/21/10 07:10 AM
02/21/10 07:10 AM
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Awesome project!

I would be very interested in comparing the DP samples with i.e. Kawai Anytime (ATX or AT II), Yamaha Silent or PianoDisc GT-2 /Magic-Star samples.

Since most of us ponder whether to buy a real piano with silent function, or a digital piano with inferior action but midi capability.

Cheers

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CruelStrings] #1379767
02/21/10 06:44 PM
02/21/10 06:44 PM
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Sorry it took so long, here is another file from my HP-307: http://rapidshare.com/files/353954751/dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307_all.mp3

The settings I changed were:
damper resonance 10
string resonance 10
key-off 10
duplex scale 10
damper noise 10
cabinet resonance off
reverb off

I looked at the wave-form in the section you showed and I dont think anything changed. Maybe what I had in mind was string resonance, not sympathetic resonance. Sorry for confusion.

As for key-off and pedal samples - I don't think I can hear or see them in the recording but maybe it's something wrong with playing from midi file like in Kawaii? Here you have 2 files I recorded directly from piano:

http://rapidshare.com/files/353950656/key-off.mp3 - 3 notes with key-off set to 10 and 3 with key-off set to 0
http://rapidshare.com/files/353959084/resonance.mp3 - your resonance test (only holding notes + with pedal on, just 6 notes because I dont have 3 hands wink + all with pedal on); also notice that the pedal noise is audible
The recording levels haven't changed from the main recording. You will see that the damper noise is quite quiet but still audible...

What I suspect it that perhaps when playing a midi file the settings from piano designer aren't applied? What do you think? Do you notice difference between my previous file and this? There is so much resonance when playing normaly with all settings to 10 that it's very unnatural and I would never set it like this.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1379785
02/21/10 07:04 PM
02/21/10 07:04 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
Sorry it took so long, here is another file from my HP-307: http://rapidshare.com/files/353954751/dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307_all.mp3
...
As for key-off and pedal samples - I don't think I can hear or see them in the recording but maybe it's something wrong with playing from midi file like in Kawaii?

Thanks! Unfortunately, the file is in mono. But it doesn't seem significantly different than your previous files in terms of all the extra noises and resonances.

Originally Posted by zaba19
Here you have 2 files I recorded directly from piano:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353950656/key-off.mp3 - 3 notes with key-off set to 10 and 3 with key-off set to 0
http://rapidshare.com/files/353959084/resonance.mp3 - your resonance test (only holding notes + with pedal on, just 6 notes because I dont have 3 hands wink + all with pedal on); also notice that the pedal noise is audible
The recording levels haven't changed from the main recording. You will see that the damper noise is quite quiet but still audible...

I can't hear anything different for the key-off recording, but the second one definitely shows off the resonance and pedal down sample! Though both of those are also in mono for some reason.

Originally Posted by zaba19
What I suspect it that perhaps when playing a midi file the settings from piano designer aren't applied? What do you think? Do you notice difference between my previous file and this? There is so much resonance when playing normaly with all settings to 10 that it's very unnatural and I would never set it like this.

Yes, I suspect that is the case too. I think I've seen other instruments that treat the MIDI input as a separate thing, and require you to input MIDI control or SYSEX to manipulate the various settings for that input.

Are you enjoying the Roland? Anything you particularly like or don't like about it?

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1379837
02/21/10 07:56 PM
02/21/10 07:56 PM
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zaba19 Offline
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Oh ffs why is Audition selecting by default only 1 channel and not both... I forgot to change it but I don't think it will change much if I do it yet again :P

As for key-up - try this with a chord in lower-end of the keyboard:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353985233/key-off_2.mp3

I particularly like the ability to play midi files from USB :P Well as I said earlier my previous piano was 3 generations old and couldnt do it. I learn Beethoven Concerto No. 1 and playing it along with the orchestra and changing tempo to suit me is really awesome and helping a lot.
Other than that - the dynamic range is so nice... Previously I could only really hear and feel fortissimo on my teacher's acoustic, this comes really close now.
Of course I could name many things I like here but it would all be compared to HP3 so don't know if it's of any use... Like keyboard with escapement, the ivory-like material, generaly the action, superior sound (no more looping that was driving me mad), much better implemented left pedal... A leap in technology.

Last edited by zaba19; 02/21/10 08:07 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1380213
02/22/10 10:32 AM
02/22/10 10:32 AM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
As for key-up - try this with a chord in lower-end of the keyboard:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353985233/key-off_2.mp3

Oh, very nice. The key up sound is more of a string damp, rather than a knock sound.

Originally Posted by zaba19
Other than that - the dynamic range is so nice... Previously I could only really hear and feel fortissimo on my teacher's acoustic, this comes really close now.

My wife is always complaining that DPs have a top output that is generally too easy to reach, and there's nowhere to go after that. Whereas with real pianos you just play harder and it will get louder - there's always more room up there.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1380441
02/22/10 04:03 PM
02/22/10 04:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 304
Cincinnati
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Thank you all, for such enthusiasm in your posts. I have the viewpoint of 1: a player in a band, 2: a small background in electronics, and 3: an employee in an acoustic-only piano shop (notwithstanding that some are played mechanically; and some of those without electricity). My 2 cents, similar to several others' comments: the tests and pictures of waveforms are wonderful to have, and a real contribution. This info helps a potential purchaser by giving them info. It is not, nor do I think dewster intended it to be, the only criteria to consider. Above all, PLAY the thing! Listen, get a variety of opinions, wait a day, play it again.

Ultimately, the device exists to be a tool for your use, whether those uses be musical, engineering, egotistic (mine has more layers than yours), or "you got a new car so I get new equipment". Please respect the differences in tool usage.


Terry@cincyrockers.com
www.theplayerpianoshop.com
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1380512
02/22/10 06:00 PM
02/22/10 06:00 PM
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Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
Oh ffs why is Audition selecting by default only 1 channel and not both... I forgot to change it but I don't think it will change much if I do it yet again :P

Could you do a short recording of the pedal down resonance again, but this time in stereo?

It seems like the resonance probably sounds good, but I can't really tell in the mono MP3. The mono file sounds like there is some kind of strange beating sound, but I think this is just due to the fact that it is in mono and would like to confirm that.

Have you inquired with Roland as to why the extra pedal and key sounds don't seem to be there when played via MIDI? If they can't be enabled (and we don't know one way or another if they can or can't) then it could be a problem for people who want to record with it.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1380527
02/22/10 06:13 PM
02/22/10 06:13 PM
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Posts: 537
The Boogie Down
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Cool! I have no bones about what this reveals. I kept my Yamaha P80 for all these years because I just didn't feel like the technology really improved. Modeling is definitely the way of the future, IMHO. I prefer Pianoteq though, because V-Piano is insanely expensive, and it fails my test!

Here's Pianoteq v3.5.3 beta. Keep in mind, Pianoteq allows you to alter the dynamic range. The default is 60db, and I left it that way, but it can be much higher. You can also adjust the action noise, like key release and pedal noise, but I left it default.

dp_bsd_v1.3_Pianoteq_v3.5.3beta.mp3

Preset: C3 Solo Recording, everything default except limiter and reverb are turned off.

Looking forward to the results!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer] #1380554
02/22/10 06:40 PM
02/22/10 06:40 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jscomposer
I kept my Yamaha P80 for all these years because I just didn't feel like the technology really improved.

Yes, it has been something of a stasis for quite a while. Small improvements here and there, but nothing really new until lately. And PC stuff is still murdering anything in dedicated hardware.

Originally Posted by jscomposer
Here's Pianoteq v3.5.3 beta. Keep in mind, Pianoteq allows you to alter the dynamic range. The default is 60db, and I left it that way, but it can be much higher. You can also adjust the action noise, like key release and pedal noise, but I left it default.

Thanks! Though I've already reviewed v3.5.2 (demo) - has much changed since then?

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1380571
02/22/10 06:59 PM
02/22/10 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Thanks! Though I've already reviewed v3.5.2 (demo) - has much changed since then?


I didn't see it. I checked again and still didn't see it. It's a huge thread, so I just scroll through looking for that courier font. If you can link to that post, that'd be great. Or if it's not much effort, you can run my mp3 through your program. smile Maybe the preset was different? I dunno how much they've tinkered with the model.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer] #1380583
02/22/10 07:13 PM
02/22/10 07:13 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jscomposer
I didn't see it. I checked again and still didn't see it. It's a huge thread, so I just scroll through looking for that courier font. If you can link to that post, that'd be great.

Sorry, the place is kind a wreck. You'll have to step around the pizza boxes, empty beer bottles, and full ashtrays. Whatever you do, do NOT wake up the crazy couple passed-out on the couch.

The main link to all reviews and samples is here.

Last edited by dewster; 02/22/10 08:25 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1380585
02/22/10 07:16 PM
02/22/10 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Could you do a short recording of the pedal down resonance again, but this time in stereo?

Here you are:

string resonance 10
key-off 10
duplex scale 10
damper noise 10
cabinet resonance off
reverb off

1. Damper resonance 0 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354431693/resonance_0.mp3
2. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354432806/resonance_5.mp3
3. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433456/resonance_10.mp3
In file - first time without pedal, 2nd with pedal
4. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433946/resonance_more.mp3
5. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354434112/resonance_more10.mp3
More notes only with pedal.

If you have any specific case of settings/what to play you'd like me to record just tell.

Originally Posted by dewster
It seems like the resonance probably sounds good, but I can't really tell in the mono MP3. The mono file sounds like there is some kind of strange beating sound, but I think this is just due to the fact that it is in mono and would like to confirm that.

With damper resonance set to 10 there are strange sounds all over when playing live smile

Originally Posted by dewster
Have you inquired with Roland as to why the extra pedal and key sounds don't seem to be there when played via MIDI? If they can't be enabled (and we don't know one way or another if they can or can't) then it could be a problem for people who want to record with it.

They are there (see my post in "Roland HP-307" thread), you just probably have to use some special data in midi file (when I record something on piano and play back everything seems to be working ok). I don't know specifics of midi format.
First 3 files were recorded to piano's internal memory and then only played back with different settings.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1380608
02/22/10 07:43 PM
02/22/10 07:43 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
1. Damper resonance 0 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354431693/resonance_0.mp3
2. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354432806/resonance_5.mp3
3. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433456/resonance_10.mp3
In file - first time without pedal, 2nd with pedal

Nice, thanks!

Originally Posted by zaba19
4. Damper resonance 5 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354433946/resonance_more.mp3
5. Damper resonance 10 - http://rapidshare.com/files/354434112/resonance_more10.mp3
More notes only with pedal.

Very nice! I notice the 4th file sounds a lot more reverby for some reason?

Originally Posted by zaba19
If you have any specific case of settings/what to play you'd like me to record just tell.

First 3 files were recorded to piano's internal memory and then only played back with different settings.

Could you send me the MIDI file that you recorded? Perhaps I could analyze it and make a custom DPBSD just for your DP, if you are willing? You're probably regretting getting involved in this by now!

Thank you very much!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1380613
02/22/10 07:50 PM
02/22/10 07:50 PM
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Ah, thanks!

I think you'll wanna redo the Pianoteq one anyway. That was a demo version with some disabled notes. Mine's the full Pro version.

BTW, what do you mean in the Pianoteq review that "The hammer knock sound is obnoxiously identical for all notes?" The Pro version allows you to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise and strike point on a per-note basis (assuming that's what you're talking about). Though I honestly can't be bothered. LOL Even in the basic version, you can adjust all those things, just globally, not for each note.

And what's "stretching?"

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer] #1380627
02/22/10 08:14 PM
02/22/10 08:14 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jscomposer
I think you'll wanna redo the Pianoteq one anyway. That was a demo version with some disabled notes. Mine's the full Pro version.

OK thanks, I'll give it a listen.

Originally Posted by jscomposer
BTW, what do you mean in the Pianoteq review that "The hammer knock sound is obnoxiously identical for all notes?" The Pro version allows you to adjust hammer hardness, hammer noise and strike point on a per-note basis (assuming that's what you're talking about). Though I honestly can't be bothered. LOL Even in the basic version, you can adjust all those things, just globally, not for each note.

I did that review early on when I wasn't accustomed to hearing hammers knocking away at me in the upper registers. Now I know it is a fairly realistic thing. I should update that review.

Originally Posted by jscomposer
And what's "stretching?"

These things are explained fairly extensively, along with the tests, in the readme file at the sharepoint link. Here is the short answer:

2. Sample stretching is a form of sample memory compression, where samples for certain notes are replaced with pitch stretched versions of samples from other nearby or adjacent notes.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1381320
02/23/10 05:01 PM
02/23/10 05:01 PM
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zaba19 Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Could you send me the MIDI file that you recorded? Perhaps I could analyze it and make a custom DPBSD just for your DP, if you are willing?

I'd love to get this file for you but there seems to be a problem.
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound... I guess only Roland can say what's going on and if they can fix it. Unless you see some magic setting in manual I could try...
Originally Posted by dewster
You're probably regretting getting involved in this by now!

Not yet wink

Edit:
Actualy I tested more thoroughly the functions in piano designer. Here is what I can freely change when playing back a "song" saved in memory:
Lid - ok
Damper resonance - not ok, seems to be const 0
Hammer noise - ok
Duplex scale - how to test it?
String resonance - ok
Key-off resonance - ok
Damper noise - not ok (if damper resonance is off dampers dont make any noise anyway)

Last edited by zaba19; 02/23/10 05:41 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1381349
02/23/10 05:43 PM
02/23/10 05:43 PM
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jmmec Offline
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Originally Posted by zaba19
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound...


Just wondering -- page 61 of the manual talks about "Changing the External Memory Setting" (there are two values: mode1 and mode2). Maybe try changing this?



Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec] #1381372
02/23/10 06:10 PM
02/23/10 06:10 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JMMEC
Originally Posted by zaba19
When I record something and just play back everything works perfectly. But then I have to save it and that breaks everything. It doesnt matter if I save to internal memory or usb - can't get the missing stuff to sound...


Just wondering -- page 61 of the manual talks about "Changing the External Memory Setting" (there are two values: mode1 and mode2). Maybe try changing this?

Worth a try? But if it can't store this to internal memory then maybe the USB mode isn't at fault?

I'm looking at page 59 of the manual, "Storing Your Settings (Memory Backup)" and I wonder if you could try to set the things that don't seem to be sticking, do a memory backup, and see what that does? Page 79 lists the settings that get saved ("Parameters Stored in Memory Backup") and even the problematic ones seem to be there.

I have an email into Roland to see what they have to say about this issue.

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