Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Excessive ledger lines?

I'm sure there's some good reason there's not a separate staff with a "super-treble" clef of its own, for those times when there are extended passages with "that many" ledger lines and some reason 8va won't serve.

Since there isn't--- flash cards. Tiresome, but time-tested. And practice.

Counting ledger lines is the express track to a migraine.

I don't really mind for the piano.... Although if I really had to choose, I would go for the 8va....

On the other hand, for the flute I prefer the notes (ledger lines). I don't know, maybe because the fingerings for the highest octave are different, and when I see the notes, even if they have an 8va, I tend to see the fingerings for those notes in my mind...

Interesting!!!!
I don't think too many of us knew about that......

I'm with Kreisler generally on this issue:I do lots of sight-reading in my line of work (and so read a lot by interval and shape) and unless the passage jumps around a great deal I find it easier to just follow the ledger lines up. The OP's example I would prefer as printed.

As well as the flute example CA mentions, it's a similar situation to a clef change in (for example) viola or cello music for just one or two notes. Most players would prefer to read the ledger line rather than re-orient themselves to the other clef then back again straight away. At least that's what string players who are more skilled than I am have told me.

There's always piccolo, which is written on the treble staff but sounds an octave higher than written. Not really the same thing, but an interesting tangent worth noting. (I hope!)

That's a very interesting fact that I didn't know. I can understand the preference, for flautists and for some other instrumentalists, to prefer notation using leger lines if the fingering is going to be different from octave to octave.

Regards,

Indeed - on the piano I'd prefer "8va" - but the quickest way to derail any high passage for violins, violas or celli in an orchestra is to write it "8va" - it throws everyone into an fit and causes whole sections to be hand-written out at correct pitch with ledger lines!!

Our orchestra (decent amateur group) has this exact problem at the moment - and because we cant read "8va" we have at least 70% of the strings playing one section an octave lower than it should be because "8va" is just NOT done!



Confirmed!!! (As a Viola player I HATE short excursions into the treble clef - but for a prolonged passage its fine.)

Why is that? Is it because there is a difference in fingering in different positions (3rd, 4th, etc.)? If that is the case, I can understand the confusion ("Oh! With everything else going on, I didn't see the 8va.") Otherwise, I don't understand why an "8va" would derail a string player to the extent that passages have to be rewritten. Is it a case of bad editing or inexperience on the part of the players?

All very interesting from a non-string-player's point of view.

Regards,

Yeah - an octave is a LONG way on a string instrument - so typically a phrase is going to be played in different positions, on different strings and completely different fingers.

I cant speak for all string players - but when looking at Piano music I 'see' A/B/C etc etc and can name any note in a split second without any thought.. When I look at Viola music I DONT!! - I see notes and think of them as possible positions on strings (tough to explain) - My mind never got into the 'labelling' and octaves have FAR less significance to me!

(For the record Piano was my principal instrument in my music degree but I was always a better Viola player than pianist - so I dont think its a lack of experience - just a different approach)

Think about it this way, too: a phrase looks the same on the piano keyboard no matter which octave you play it in (so 8va indications can be helpful, simplifiying reading). But this is far from being so on a stringed instrument.

Agree. I recently saw 8vb and thought for a second it was a typo.

I do a lot of music for beginner pianists, and I use 15ma all the time, often where a sequence was 8va and then repeated an octave higher. Sometimes, however, we just write in italics: play two octaves higher.

This frees the student from the stress of reading pressure, and they can focus simply on the performance of the piece over the whole keyboard.

Meantime, I do agree that on the whole ledger lines are easier to read in that they keep the geographical relationships clear in the notation.....

I've worked through some scores where the ledger lines were so close together that you could not see the breaks between them. It becomes a challenge then just to know which line is the top line of the staff and which lines are the ledger lines.

Rich

Yes -- and as per that last part, it doesn't depend at all on "different positions." On string instruments, the same note in different octaves is played completely differently, even in the same position. There's no relation at all between how you play one "C" (or whatever note) and any other C.

I was surprised to learn what ChopinAddict said about the flute. I shouldn't have been, because I actually play violin and so I should have thought of how it is on other instruments besides the piano. I guess I've been doing too much piano.
And anyway.....I wouldn't have thought that the notation of piano music would have any effect from how it would be on other instruments. But maybe composers just get into the habit of observing such considerations, even when a piece is for an instrument where it doesn't matter in this way.

Here is a flute fingering chart, for those who are interested...

Those kind of clefs do exist; I'm not sure why we don't see them more often in piano music. I seem to remember seeing them in 4-hand music sometimes.

Cos it's easier to use 8va/15ma etc. if you are moving around the extremes, and it's extremely rare to have the whole piece needing to be in that one extreme register.

You are probably right about the ease of use in most cases. And too, things tend to get standardized. But if I am understanding you correctly, the thing about a whole piece being in an extreme register doesn't really make too much sense, since clefs can (and often do) change anywhere during the course of a piece.

I don't quite understand your question/observation, wr. Clefs only change if you are moving which register you are using. So if a whole piece was in an extreme register it might make sense to use a clef which signified that everything was two octaves higher than written, but if you are darting about high and low it is often less effort to keep things in the standard clef but signify the register change through 8va and 15ma. This is very clear to see at a glance (no checking what kind of a treble clef is being used).

Composers *should* be aiming to create scores that are the simplest series of instructions to follow in order to realise the music the composer has imagined. The more things to confuse the performer the greater chance that the music of the composer will be altered unintentionally.

Otherwise, you could do any fool thing with clefs - or with 8va/15ma for that matter.

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Sorry to piggyback on my own post but.....
last night I saw the use of 8vb for one note! In that case, I'd have sooner seen it on legers.