Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
80 registered members (AprilE, Anil Kalagatla, Almaviva, 23 invisible), 1,230 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#1380842 - 02/23/10 01:18 AM Excessive ledger lines?  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
buck2202 Offline
Full Member
buck2202  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
Cleveland, OH
[Linked Image]
(Click takes you to imageshack, not imslp)

I'm working on Grieg's Lyric Piece Op.57 No.6 (Heimweh/Home-Sickness) at the moment, and these are measures 36-41 (no numbers in my edition, so I counted it quickly and may be wrong). I'm working from a Dover edition, but it looks just like the image above (Edition Peters, from IMSLP). I don't have any questions about playing it, and apologies if I'm bringing up something that's been beaten to death before...I did a quick search and found general questions about ledger lines, but not exactly my question.

I'm wondering, is there anyone that prefers this amount of ledger-lines over using 8va? And what motivates an engraver/typesetter(/composer) to do it one way or the other? I realize that this is fairly simple to read, but it just seems awkward to me.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1380847 - 02/23/10 01:27 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: buck2202]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Seems like you don't like it -- and I'm with you.
BTW I don't think those kinds of notes are 'fairly simple to read.' I have a helluva time with them. I'm a good sight reader and score reader, but not with notes like that. They never stop being a pain in the neck.

Literally. smile

Because I lean forward, stare at the notes, lean back, lean forward again, then finally break down and count the dam lines -- like, "OK, let's see, what would that be......A, C, E, G, B!! Cool, it's a B! No wait a minute, it's B-sharp. Or did I miss a line or two, maybe it's a D-sharp or F-sharp.....

I can't stand those.

#1380849 - 02/23/10 01:31 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
buck2202 Offline
Full Member
buck2202  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
Cleveland, OH
Oh, no, I agree with you completely...it drives me crazy. When I say "not that difficult to read," I don't mean that I could just pick up in the middle of it and tell you what the notes were after that many ledger lines. But, the intervals are small enough that I can keep decent track of where I am from an "easy" starting point like the E# in the second line.

But yeah..to just take a single note out of it takes me a while. Adjust the lamp, clean my glasses, go get some coffee, etc... smile

#1380850 - 02/23/10 01:38 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: buck2202]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
UK
There are a few issues with this particular phrase that makes the use of the 8va sign a little problematic.

1. Both hands, after a little while, end up in the upper staff. Which makes things complicated (the 8va sign applies for both hands?)
2. There is polyphonic texture on the right hand, which again would weild the question (the 8va applies for both voices?_
3. Finally the left hand is rather close, and bringing the right hand an octave down, would probably create a mess in the mind of the performer, with notes seemingly cross refferencing all the time.

I agree they are tiresome a little, but it does stand that it might be more trouble than it's worth to put an 8va sign.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1380851 - 02/23/10 01:39 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: buck2202]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by buck2202
....Adjust the lamp, clean my glasses, go get some coffee, etc... smile

......sometimes magnifying glass......

#1380853 - 02/23/10 01:42 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Nikolas
There are a few issues with this particular phrase that makes the use of the 8va sign a little problematic.

1. Both hands, after a little while, end up in the upper staff. Which makes things complicated (the 8va sign applies for both hands?)

Good point but I don't think it would be an issue. If the upper staff had an 8va sign, it would clearly apply just to that staff.

Quote
....3. Finally the left hand is rather close, and bringing the right hand an octave down, would probably create a mess in the mind of the performer, with notes seemingly cross referencing all the time.

Yes (good get!) -- and I think that could very well be why it's notated the way it is.

#1380856 - 02/23/10 01:55 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 351
Samuel1993 Offline
Full Member
Samuel1993  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 351
United Kingdom
Sometimes I prefer 8va - but to be honest, it's sometines used pointlessly. If there's excessive ledger lines, it can be a pain. But to be honest, I'm so used to them now I can just read them like there on the stave.


Currently working on...
Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66
Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282
Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
#1380859 - 02/23/10 02:02 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
buck2202 Offline
Full Member
buck2202  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 216
Cleveland, OH
Oh, that's interesting. Actually this whole "Molto piu vivo" section has both hands in the treble clef, and I can see how it might be a little unusual to have the left hand "appear" to be playing higher notes with 8va.

However, this is from Op.62 No.1 (Sylph) that I played a little while ago. It's in the same edition, so presumably was edited by the same person, or (hopefully) at least with a similar style. Why no ledger lines here, then? Would it have crossed some line between 'awkward' and 'inappropriate'?
[Linked Image]

#1380866 - 02/23/10 02:28 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: buck2202]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
UK
Marc: The last 2 bars in the 1st example (1st post) has both hands playing from the same staff, the upper one. Where do you apply the 8va? To all voices? To the right hand? To all hands? etc...

buck: I can't be sure (didn't edit the score). What I can see as differences between the two examples you posted are:
1. The first is flowing, while the second is an exact repetition one octave lower (the second time). Might be easier for the eye.
2. Cross staffing on the second example wouldn't exactly work, because the beams could get in the way (despite one would turn the upper staff lines upwards, there would still be a continuous beam, which could complicate things).
3. Since there is no cross staffing, one of the things I mentioned above (1 I think) dissappears (no problem with voicing, which voice the 8va applies, etc...

All this is just guessing on the age of Finale, right? I've never ever used typography or engraving, so I'm quite uncertain if there are other practical issues... :-/

#1380881 - 02/23/10 03:12 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Marc: The last 2 bars in the 1st example (1st post) has both hands playing from the same staff, the upper one. Where do you apply the 8va? To all voices? To the right hand? To all hands? etc......

That would be very easily taken care of: all the notes would just be written an octave lower (and the 8va sign would apply to all of them).
No problem.

#1380887 - 02/23/10 03:31 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
landorrano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
Originally Posted by Mark_C

That would be very easily taken care of: all the notes would just be written an octave lower (and the 8va sign would apply to all of them).
No problem.


Sancte bovinus, what a dunce the editor was! (Maybe Grieg too.)

#1380903 - 02/23/10 04:32 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: landorrano]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 239
SamOnThePiano Offline
Full Member
SamOnThePiano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 239
Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
Schubert did the Same with his impromptu no 2 en E flat major. There are more than 6 ledger lines! Or seven. But I think that the piece wouldn't look simple with an 8va and could cause confusion. Is that the case?


Never,ever lose against yourself and always try to be a better person than you ever were yesterday.

Founder of my own dreams, to become a concert pianist.

I am Samuel Cho(click!) and music is what I'm here for.
#1380905 - 02/23/10 04:49 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: SamOnThePiano]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member
custard apple  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
Sydney
I'm with you. They are driving me crazy in Clair de Lune. When I compose pop-jazz, I use 8va.

#1380918 - 02/23/10 06:14 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,514
UK
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Marc: The last 2 bars in the 1st example (1st post) has both hands playing from the same staff, the upper one. Where do you apply the 8va? To all voices? To the right hand? To all hands? etc......

That would be very easily taken care of: all the notes would just be written an octave lower (and the 8va sign would apply to all of them).
No problem.
Nope,

It would still weild the very same question: "The 8va applies to all voices, all layers, all hands, or only the upper one"?

Honestly, with cross staff, the 8va sign is actually quite risky to use.

(At least my take from the end of the editor/composer/publisher)

#1380947 - 02/23/10 07:49 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: buck2202]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,629
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Damon  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,629
Originally Posted by buck2202
[Linked Image]

I'm wondering, is there anyone that prefers this amount of ledger-lines over using 8va? And what motivates an engraver/typesetter(/composer) to do it one way or the other? I realize that this is fairly simple to read, but it just seems awkward to me.


I wouldn't say I prefer this (slaps head and says "I could have had an 8va"), but it doesn't bother me or slow me down anymore.

#1380978 - 02/23/10 09:09 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Damon]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DragonPianoPlayer  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462
Denver, CO
Nikolas,

I don't see your point. 8va applies to the notes on one staff. It does not apply by hand or by voice. It would be perfectly clear if used in this context.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
#1381003 - 02/23/10 09:58 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Damon]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,183
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Monica K.  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,183
Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted by Damon

I wouldn't say I prefer this (slaps head and says "I could have had an 8va"), but it doesn't bother me or slow me down anymore.


I don't have an opinion on the ledger line issue, but I did want to say that I think this is one of the funniest one-liners I've seen on PW in ages. thumb


Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#1381005 - 02/23/10 10:02 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Damon]  
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,540
gooddog Offline
5000 Post Club Member
gooddog  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,540
Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted by Damon
slaps head and says "I could have had an 8va"
laugh


Best regards,

Deborah
#1381046 - 02/23/10 11:16 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: gooddog]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,862
dannylux Online content
1000 Post Club Member
dannylux  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,862
Connecticut
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va.

Pierre Sancan's delightful Boite à Musique:


[Linked Image]


Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
#1381054 - 02/23/10 11:27 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: dannylux]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
My trusty mnemonic (ACE) comes in handy and my brains have gotten used to it. A C E for the notes on the lines starting with the first ledger line. You can read them really quick once you program the mnemonic in. I admit,sheepishly, that while reading both staffs comes automatically to me now, I STILL need said mnemonic to sight read the silly ledger lines..

#1381058 - 02/23/10 11:34 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Andromaque]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
For me it just depends on the length of the passage. Extended passages in 8va are always nice, but for short passages, I find the 8va line and mental gymnastics to be not worth the bother.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1381075 - 02/23/10 11:53 AM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,028
Batuhan Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Batuhan  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,028
Istanbul
I hate 8va i can read all ledger lines in the treble and bass clef very fast i work on them too much write it down and make practice improve your sight reading


Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

#1381086 - 02/23/10 12:06 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Marc: The last 2 bars in the 1st example (1st post) has both hands playing from the same staff, the upper one. Where do you apply the 8va? To all voices? To the right hand? To all hands? etc......

That would be very easily taken care of: all the notes would just be written an octave lower (and the 8va sign would apply to all of them).
No problem.
Nope,
It would still weild the very same question: "The 8va applies to all voices, all layers, all hands, or only the upper one"?.....

Nikolas -- I gotta believe you're just not picturing it. Remember, for this point we're talking only about the last 2 measures of the example in the 1st post.
There would be no ambiguity, because the voices are in basically the same range and quite close together. I'm sure that if it were written and you were looking at it, you'd have no doubt that it would apply to both voices -- nor would anyone else.

#1381092 - 02/23/10 12:11 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Monica K.]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Monica K.
Originally Posted by Damon

I wouldn't say I prefer this (slaps head and says "I could have had an 8va"), but it doesn't bother me or slow me down anymore.

I don't have an opinion on the ledger line issue, but I did want to say that I think this is one of the funniest one-liners I've seen on PW in ages. thumb

YES!! Thanks for highlighting it -- I hadn't gotten Damon's brilliant 'reverse-alpha-numeric pun.' smile

#1381094 - 02/23/10 12:12 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Monica K.]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Monica K.
I don't have an opinion on the ledger line issue.....

Actually my main opinion on the issue is I prefer to see it spelled leger. ha

#1381096 - 02/23/10 12:13 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: dannylux]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

LOL!
Great example!

But actually you don't.
There's also the "16va" sign.....although in this example I have to admit that the appearance on the page contributes to the feeling of the passage, and writing the notes an octave lower would impair that.

And I'd guess that's a big part of it in the Grieg example too.

#1381106 - 02/23/10 12:19 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
8va typically applies to the staff below it appears. When both staves are to be played 8va, editors will do one of two things - either place the 8va above each staff (which I've only seen once or twice, it's a horrible solution because it clutters the score), or write "Both hands 8va" (you often see this in elementary level method books.)

The reason it wasn't used in the Grieg example is:

1) If you're sight-reading the score, then it's very easy to miss the indication "8va", so having it there wouldn't be all that helpful.

2) If you're learning the piece, then it would only take a few seconds to write "E# Fx A C#" above the notes in the second line, and A#m, D#M over the triads.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1381113 - 02/23/10 12:32 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Harmonies Offline
Full Member
Harmonies  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....


Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?


"Have patience with yourself. Your future is ahead of you. Rome was not built in one day." - Liszt
#1381114 - 02/23/10 12:34 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Harmonies]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,674
New York
Originally Posted by Harmonies
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!

Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile

#1381119 - 02/23/10 12:40 PM Re: Excessive ledger lines? [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 278
ted.stanion Offline
Full Member
ted.stanion  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 278
Portland, OR
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Harmonies
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by dannylux
Sometimes you need ledger lines and 8va....

There's also the "16va" sign....

Wouldn't it be a "15va" sign?

LOLOLOL!!!!

Come to think of it, it sort of should be, but it isn't. smile


Actually, it should be and is. I've never seen 16va in a score, but I have seen 15va.

Ted

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
New Mapes IGS wire coils look old!
by synthnut. 12/10/17 11:20 PM
Opinion on wrist/slur motion in a video
by wirecat. 12/10/17 09:45 PM
MP11 or MP11 SE setup
by dpilot83. 12/10/17 09:42 PM
MP11SE - First impressions
by OneWatt. 12/10/17 06:49 PM
Kawai MP7 MIDI
by kangolboy. 12/10/17 05:50 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,199
Posts2,678,169
Members89,262
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0