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Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room #1380607
02/22/10 07:40 PM
02/22/10 07:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,838
doremi Offline OP
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doremi  Offline OP
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Will it sound better?


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
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Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1380631
02/22/10 08:28 PM
02/22/10 08:28 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,026
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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terminaldegree  Offline
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Due to space limitations, this is how my piano is placed currently. I don't really like how it sounds, but there are no other good options in my living room. I put up a furniture moving pad on the wall behind the instrument and it may have helped smooth out the sound a little.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: terminaldegree] #1380633
02/22/10 08:30 PM
02/22/10 08:30 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,017
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Online content
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Steve Cohen  Online Content
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Try putting the pads between the backposts and the soundboard.


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Steve Cohen] #1380639
02/22/10 08:39 PM
02/22/10 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Well an upright piano is supposed to have the wall behind it, to help project the tone.

I had an organ which had a speaker cabinet. One side was fully finished, and the speaker side was barle. The intention was to place the speakers facing the wall to reflect it out I guess.


______
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1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

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Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1380758
02/22/10 11:25 PM
02/22/10 11:25 PM
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rocket88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Brandon_W_T
Well an upright piano is supposed to have the wall behind it, to help project the tone.


From where do you get your information?

When placed against a wall, the wall echoes the tone back into the piano, not into the room.


Piano teacher.
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: rocket88] #1380770
02/22/10 11:42 PM
02/22/10 11:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Brandon_W_T  Offline
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Omaha, Nebraska
Thats about what I recall the piano store told me.
I think he stated something about wall=projection, or just better volume when on a wall-
as that is why most always an upright is put against a wall,. Notice the backs of uprights are not finished, or painted.


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1380775
02/22/10 11:49 PM
02/22/10 11:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,131
rocket88 Offline
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Lets see, Brandon...

Physics tells us that the sound from the soundboard of an upright, which is in the back of the piano, will travel out from the back, and, if it hits a parallel wall, will bounce back to the piano.

Its called an "echo".

But a "piano store told you"..."I think he stated something about wall=projection..."

Wow.

ps...the backs of uprights are not "not finished", as you claim, but rather have a clear finish. Again, that is where the soundboard is...To "paint" the back would mean painting the soundboard, not a good idea at all. But it is finished in clear, just like the soundboard of a grand piano.

Furthermore, my antique German upright has a black cloth from the factory that covers the entire back of the piano, so the piano could be placed elsewhere.

Have a nice day, Brandon. Bye.


Piano teacher.
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: rocket88] #1380968
02/23/10 09:47 AM
02/23/10 09:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Brandon_W_T  Offline
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Omaha, Nebraska
Well thats kinda what he told me,


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1380979
02/23/10 10:15 AM
02/23/10 10:15 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,017
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Online content
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Steve Cohen  Online Content
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Posts: 11,017
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Advising people here when the basis is "Well thats kinda what he told me" is a dis-service to those who come here seeking accurate information from those with deep experience.

I know your intentions are good, but you have a record of passing on bad advise.


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798584
11/30/11 09:33 PM
11/30/11 09:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 528
Portland, OR
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jivemutha Offline
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Portland, OR
I'm getting a new Yamaha U3 "Silent Piano" (so-called "U3SG"). Aesthetically, angling (about 45 degrees) the piano near (but not in) a corner would absolutely look the best.

Can any expert out there be more specific about what this will do the the sound of the acoustic component of this hybrid piano, when compared with the usual up-against-the-wall upright piano positioning?

(Of course the digital component comes through headphones and therefore would sound the same if I glued the piano to the ceiling.)

There may be nothing better than subjective opinions but I'm hoping for something more consistent if that's possible. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798588
11/30/11 09:44 PM
11/30/11 09:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Supply  Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by doremi
Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room: Will it sound better?
What an odd question. What does "better" mean? For whom? Better could be - louder, or softer, it can be brighter - or mellower. It all depends on the piano, the space, and above all, the listener's perception, personal preference and judgement.

How about you try positioning your piano in a corner and reporting your (subjective) findings? I think that could kick off a more meaningful discussion.

Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798593
11/30/11 09:52 PM
11/30/11 09:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,791
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Atlanta, GA
Acoustic science is absolutely complicated, but advice starts with a few "rules of thumb." Uprights, because they are closed, suffer a lack of immediacy in tone. Bringing it away from a nearby wall amplifies this tendency. Corners also tend to trap sound, creating expected and unexpected interference patterns - and you just took dead aim at a corner. It's not the end of the world, but it is an inefficient means of getting a pure sound back to the pianist.

My harsh advice would be to forget the corner because it is rarely, if ever, better aesthetically anyway. It usually happens out of need (like terminaldegree's situation).

My kinder, gentler advice is to roll the piano around a bit and try both. Many things about your new piano will be much more apparent when it arrives.

But mostly, enjoy your new piano!


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
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Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798785
12/01/11 08:47 AM
12/01/11 08:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
I've had good results in moving the piano about 6" to 1' away from the wall, and angling it slightly, so that the bass side is somewhat further removed than the treble side. Of course, this means that the piano isn't perfectly "square" to the room anymore, but the acoustic results were so satisfying that I left it angled.

(This is the Ibach listed in my signature.)


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
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Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Mark R.] #1798789
12/01/11 08:53 AM
12/01/11 08:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,676
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PassingBy Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
I've had good results in moving the piano about 6" to 1' away from the wall, and angling it slightly, so that the bass side is somewhat further removed than the treble side. Of course, this means that the piano isn't perfectly "square" to the room anymore, but the acoustic results were so satisfying that I left it angled.

(This is the Ibach listed in my signature.)


I do that with my upright (not in my signature), but with the treble end angled out a tiny bit more than the bass end. The treble sounds much better, freer, in a way.

Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798792
12/01/11 08:59 AM
12/01/11 08:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 113
Paradigm City
R_Dorothy Offline
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What about about in the middle with foam??? Like this beautiful Steingraeber 130:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1/topic/019089/Number/0/site_id/1#import


If you want love you must be love
But if you bleed love you will die love
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: PianoWorksATL] #1798812
12/01/11 10:02 AM
12/01/11 10:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 843
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Brent H Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Corners also tend to trap sound, creating expected and unexpected interference patterns - and you just took dead aim at a corner. It's not the end of the world, but it is an inefficient means of getting a pure sound back to the pianist.

My harsh advice would be to forget the corner because it is rarely, if ever, better aesthetically anyway. It usually happens out of need (like terminaldegree's situation).


To what extent do you find this also applying to grand pianos?

If you had a choice between the back and bass sides of a grand being just a foot or so from walls (with the lid opening facing out from the corner) versus getting it a few feet out of the corner on one dimention or the other would you avoid the corner?

Or with grands is it mostly that you don't want to point the lid opening into the corner?


Current Life+Music Philosophy: Less Thinking, More Foot Tapping

Ars Longa, Vita Brevis
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798884
12/01/11 12:49 PM
12/01/11 12:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,464
Chapel Hill, NC
Stanza Offline
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Chapel Hill, NC
Recently, I angled my grand out so it was a little more cornered. I thought there was a dramatic improvement in the sound, especially less muddiness in the bass. Experiment! (also recording might help you judge the sound with less bias.)_


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Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Brent H] #1798899
12/01/11 01:29 PM
12/01/11 01:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,791
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by Brent H
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Corners also tend to trap sound, creating expected and unexpected interference patterns - and you just took dead aim at a corner. It's not the end of the world, but it is an inefficient means of getting a pure sound back to the pianist.

My harsh advice would be to forget the corner because it is rarely, if ever, better aesthetically anyway. It usually happens out of need (like terminaldegree's situation).


To what extent do you find this also applying to grand pianos?

If you had a choice between the back and bass sides of a grand being just a foot or so from walls (with the lid opening facing out from the corner) versus getting it a few feet out of the corner on one dimention or the other would you avoid the corner?

Or with grands is it mostly that you don't want to point the lid opening into the corner?

There is no shortage of sound from a grand, and most people do give aesthetics priority, but for the best acoustic presentation, absolutely the same rules apply...bring the piano more into the middle of the room and then play with the final position until you get a satisfying focal point. Car stereos allow you to center speaker output for the driver's benefit - same principal just more variables in your home.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: Mark R.] #1798909
12/01/11 01:58 PM
12/01/11 01:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
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Withindale Offline
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Suffolk, England
Originally Posted by Mark R.
I've had good results in moving the piano about 6" to 1' away from the wall, and angling it slightly, so that the bass side is somewhat further removed than the treble side.


So have I, but I'm only allowed 4", or 6" at times on sufferance. Wavelengths of piano sounds range from a few inches in the treble to many feet in the bass, giving plenty of scope for trial and error with wall effects and room effects. To hear what you are missing remove the front panels (i.e. sound barriers) from your upright!


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Angular positioning of upright piano in corner of room [Re: doremi] #1798929
12/01/11 03:04 PM
12/01/11 03:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
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Brent H Offline
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Thanks, Sam. I'll see what I can do within my space constraints to find a "euphonious" position somewhat out from the corner. Hopefully even a few feet will matter.

Hope mine wasn't too much of a thread-hijack from doremi's original question.


Current Life+Music Philosophy: Less Thinking, More Foot Tapping

Ars Longa, Vita Brevis
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