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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Mark_C] #1378326
02/19/10 06:06 PM
02/19/10 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster
.....Controlling the humidity of the whole room between 40% and 60% is ideal.....

.....or just of the area around the piano -- right?
(Provided you're really doing it for the whole area)

That's what I do.


Mark, are you saying that you somehow manage to control the area around the piano to a certain humidity, but not the whole room? I do not know what your setup is, but this sounds very doubtful to me.

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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Old Dog] #1378339
02/19/10 06:23 PM
02/19/10 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Dog
Originally Posted by AJF
Not to mention that Dampp Chaser is endorsed by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai etc etc. That's good enough for me. If these companies endorse the use of this product why (no offense to the OP intended) are we even talking about it?


The endorsement may simply mean that it is not harming the piano, and thus is safe to use. But it does not necessarily mean it is proven effective. But that is a very minor point.

What is more interesting here is this. Isn't it perfectly alright to talk about and even question issues that is endorsed by authoritive figures? Just because someone well respected in the field said something does not mean it is a truth, while I definitely respect the endorser's collective experience and dominance in this area (I knew nothing about piano).

And the thinking that we should not even talk about it (questioning the effectiveness of an endorsed product) really does not make sense.


We could also debate whether or not the sun will come up tomorrow, but it might not be a good use of time.

50+ years of experience; almost universal endoresement by manufcaturers, tuners, dealers, the PTG; etc., makes for a slam-dunk case.


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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Old Dog] #1378341
02/19/10 06:25 PM
02/19/10 06:25 PM
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It's not that we shouldn't talk about it. It's just that I'm far more apt to follow a piano manufacturer's advice on things regarding their product than some lay person with an opinion. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion but when someone states their opinion my first thought is 'What credentials do you have to back that opinion?' If someone says 'I think the dampp chaser is useless for grand pianos' and then backs up that opinion with layperson logic well no offense but that opinion doesn't really have much validity in my books. If a company like Kawai endorses the use of a product I'm assuming their opinion actually has some real weight to it. They understand the physics of a piano on a level that, save a tiny few, most of us on this forum can scarcely begin to comprehend. So yes we can talk about it all we want, but I just question it's usefulness. I am a pianist by profession. If I stated that I think global warming is a sham, even though many of the world's leading scientists would disagree,
wouldn't the average person think 'Who cares what a musician's views on global warming are? He hasn't studied geology and the other sciences that would give his views the educated weight to be valid so who cares.'
All I'm saying is that I wouldn't presume to give an opinion on something that I know nothing about. To me that's a waste of people time.



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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Old Dog] #1378349
02/19/10 06:30 PM
02/19/10 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Dog
....Isn't it perfectly alright to talk about and even question issues that is endorsed by authoritive figures? Just because someone well respected in the field said something does not mean it is a truth, while I definitely respect the endorser's collective experience and dominance in this area (I knew nothing about piano).

And the thinking that we should not even talk about it (questioning the effectiveness of an endorsed product) really does not make sense.

Yes, yes, and yes.
Very well said.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Steve Cohen] #1378351
02/19/10 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
We could also debate whether or not the sun will come up tomorrow.....

Come off it!!!! ha

If you think it's that clear and that you know enough about it, how about you give us a good and complete answer to the point in the 1st post.

If you can't, you were being awfully dismissive in making a reply like that.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for gra [Re: Old Dog] #1378352
02/19/10 06:34 PM
02/19/10 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Dog
Originally Posted by AJF
Not to mention that Dampp Chaser is endorsed by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai etc etc. That's good enough for me. If these companies endorse the use of this product why (no offense to the OP intended) are we even talking about it?


The endorsement may simply mean that it is not harming the piano, and thus is safe to use. But it does not necessarily mean it is proven effective. But that is a very minor point.

What is more interesting here is this. Isn't it perfectly alright to talk about and even question issues that is endorsed by authoritive figures? Just because someone well respected in the field said something does not mean it is a truth, while I definitely respect the endorser's collective experience and dominance in this area (I knew nothing about piano).

And the thinking that we should not even talk about it (questioning the effectiveness of an endorsed product) really does not make sense.


EXACTLY. Besides, if anything could go wrong, they can blame it on the Dampp Chaser not being installed properly. Too many variables .

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: David-G] #1378355
02/19/10 06:37 PM
02/19/10 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by David-G
Mark, are you saying that you somehow manage to control the area around the piano to a certain humidity, but not the whole room? I do not know what your setup is, but this sounds very doubtful to me.

I can understand your skepticism, and it's well taken.
But yes indeed, that's what I mean, that's what I do, and it works.

It's a fairly large room (although not extremely so) and the piano is basically centered along the back wall. (Imagine sort of a tiny tiny little auditorium. -- I mean, that's not what it is, I'm just trying to give you the image.) I have 3 humidifiers "surrounding" the piano, I have a hygrometer there all the time, and I regularly rotate the hygrometer to make sure that the relative humidity is very uniform in the entire area. The rest of the room doesn't have the same relative humidity as the area around the piano. In the middle of the room it's pretty close, at the far end it isn't.

It's an unusual set-up and it requires a lot of attention, but if you do it and do it well (big ifs), I'm saying that then you can achieve the goal without doing it for the whole room.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Mark_C] #1378361
02/19/10 06:43 PM
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In all fairness though I DID notice that the OP's job is as an engineer. So I'm sure hoola knows a lot more about these things than I do.



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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: AJF] #1378364
02/19/10 06:45 PM
02/19/10 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AJF
In all fairness though I DID notice that the OP's job is as an engineer. So I'm sure hoola knows a lot more about these things than I do.

Yes -- and the point is a good one and deserves to be taken seriously.

People who try to dismiss such a thing without having a good answer just make themselves look like they're just dismissing it without having a good answer. ha

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Mark_C] #1378373
02/19/10 06:58 PM
02/19/10 06:58 PM
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I also used to worry about the OP's question. But the same answer was put to me as SeilerFan proposed: that "the holes in the soundboard to accommodate the plate provide circulation so that an equilibrium will ensue". Given the long time that wood takes to equilibriate to the humidity in the air, I thought this was a reasonably convincing argument.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Mark_C] #1378379
02/19/10 07:01 PM
02/19/10 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by David-G
Mark, are you saying that you somehow manage to control the area around the piano to a certain humidity, but not the whole room? I do not know what your setup is, but this sounds very doubtful to me.

I can understand your skepticism, and it's well taken.
But yes indeed, that's what I mean, that's what I do, and it works.

It's a fairly large room (although not extremely so) and the piano is basically centered along the back wall. (Imagine sort of a tiny tiny little auditorium. -- I mean, that's not what it is, I'm just trying to give you the image.) I have 3 humidifiers "surrounding" the piano, I have a hygrometer there all the time, and I regularly rotate the hygrometer to make sure that the relative humidity is very uniform in the entire area. The rest of the room doesn't have the same relative humidity as the area around the piano. In the middle of the room it's pretty close, at the far end it isn't.

It's an unusual set-up and it requires a lot of attention, but if you do it and do it well (big ifs), I'm saying that then you can achieve the goal without doing it for the whole room.


If you don't mind my asking, I am curious why you should want to go to such complicated lengths. Especially, if the room is not extremely large. Or do you have windows or doors open in the remainder of the room, which act as a source of low (or high) humidity?

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: David-G] #1378405
02/19/10 07:33 PM
02/19/10 07:33 PM
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Also, not to forget: Not all piano technicians and piano dealers recommend the DC system or remain skeptical about it. This is not the majority but I've talked to a number of really knowledgeable well-respected professionals that question the system's effectiveness. This is not to say that they are right. However, sometimes people make it sound as if "the professionals" as a whole would agree on this subject. This is not true.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: SeilerFan] #1378409
02/19/10 07:39 PM
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Because the doors and windows of our living room remain closed, it is easy to maintain a constant humidity by using a room humidifier in the winter and a dehumidifier in the summer. If this were not the case, I would seriously consider getting a DC.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: David-G] #1378438
02/19/10 08:24 PM
02/19/10 08:24 PM
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I have been a registered, qualified installer of these units for this area since 1991.

A Damp Chaser, properly installed, has the purpose of controlling or assisting in controlling sounding board movements. The Damp Chaser units will have no effect on action parts.

Heat has its own energy and will move air quite freely; air will carry the humidity from the unit in and around the sounding board on both sides.

When these units first arrived on the market, sometimes after installation the piano owner would cover the top of the instrument with a piano cover, sometimes vinyl and sometimes cotton canvas. In both cases, there was a water mark or damage left by the rising moisture on top of the top board usually right in the center. This is not only above the sounding board but the top side of the top board, which proves that the moisture can carry farther than one might be aware of.


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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1378461
02/19/10 09:32 PM
02/19/10 09:32 PM
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I am very interested in this topic because my living room / kitchen is 60-feet long. I like to keep windows open, so that takes out the option of dehumidification. Adds on top of it, I am 1 mile away from the ocean so there is plenty of moisture in the air (all year round).

I believe the damp chaser is a carefully controlled electrical heater. When the air is heated, its relative humidity goes down (because the air can hold more water when warm). So it is dryer.

The water on the cover is from condensation. Again temperature is the issue. Without going into detail, it is similar to water condense on windows (on the inside) in winter.

So if your piano is well ventilated (not covered), the temperature would not have much effect, because air are all mixed easily. So your damp chaser just heats the whole room. It will have some effect when the piano is covered and left in a quiet place (no wind). But I am not sure if a simple heater source can easily manage the correct humidity level effectively.

Anyway, discussions and disagreements with reasons are welcome. I have a Ph.D. in physics, so I always enjoy free-spirited challanges.

For the question on whether we should debate if the sun will raise tomorrow. Here is my answer.

The fact that the sun will raise tomorrow is proven by modern astronomy. The trajectary of the stars and planets are explained by theories which matchs observations. This is proven by science, not endorsed by an authoritive figure (like Pop). I would accept a proven science statement (even if it is shown to me just by my teacher), but would not accept a statement just as truth because it is from Pop. Even for the scientific theories, I am questioning it when I am learning it. That's the scientific method.

More examples?

Columbus questioned what the common sailors say, and proved that the common sense is wrong (the water does not leak down from underneath the globe).

Einstein questioned the common truth that time is absolute, and invented the relativities which leads to atomic energy.

Read the Steinway history, they came to excellences by changing the traditional design based on emerging scientific research (in 1800s), including the acoustical theories by physicist Hermann von Helmholtz. They must be given the same "respect our centuries of tradition" lecture back then. :-) I can imagine that "we have been making things this way for centuries. Who are those young acoustic wizard? What do they know?"
http://www.steinway.com/factory/steinway_history.shtml

That's how a society evolve.

Last edited by Old Dog; 02/19/10 09:37 PM.

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Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: David-G] #1378474
02/19/10 10:14 PM
02/19/10 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by David-G
Mark, are you saying that you somehow manage to control the area around the piano to a certain humidity, but not the whole room? I do not know what your setup is, but this sounds very doubtful to me.

I can understand your skepticism, and it's well taken.
But yes indeed, that's what I mean, that's what I do, and it works....
It's an unusual set-up and it requires a lot of attention, but if you do it and do it well (big ifs), I'm saying that then you can achieve the goal without doing it for the whole room.

If you don't mind my asking, I am curious why you should want to go to such complicated lengths. Especially, if the room is not extremely large. Or do you have windows or doors open in the remainder of the room, which act as a source of low (or high) humidity?

I really don't understand the question, in various ways.

First: Why do I "go to such lengths"? You're implying that it's way hard (it's not) and that there's an obvious better way (I know that a lot of people assume there is -- i.e. DampChaser -- but as you see, I don't).

Second, although the room isn't extremely large, it's large (as I said).

Finally, I don't understand the thing about doors and windows, not really. If you mean that the doors and windows contribute to the effort that's needed for the humidification by virtue of enhancing air circulation, I know that -- it's part of "the lay of the land" -- but the thing is, the method works, so whatever you're thinking about doors and windows is subsumed in the above (if I get you right).

Maybe I've just answered your question in the process of explaining how I didn't understand it.... smile

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: SeilerFan] #1378476
02/19/10 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SeilerFan
Also, not to forget: Not all piano technicians and piano dealers recommend the DC system or remain skeptical about it. This is not the majority but I've talked to a number of really knowledgeable well-respected professionals that question the system's effectiveness......

Yes indeed -- and me too.

The people who are saying basically "shut up" aren't on very solid ground.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1378480
02/19/10 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
....Heat has its own energy and will move air quite freely; air will carry the humidity from the unit in and around the sounding board on both sides....

.....but how evenly? That doesn't address whether the humidity carried "in and around" results in an equal amount "within and on top" as on the lower portion.

Quote
When these units first arrived on the market, sometimes after installation the piano owner would cover the top of the instrument with a piano cover, sometimes vinyl and sometimes cotton canvas. In both cases, there was a water mark or damage left by the rising moisture on top of the top board usually right in the center. This is not only above the sounding board but the top side of the top board, which proves that the moisture can carry farther than one might be aware of.

IMO, unless I'm missing something (which I could be), it also proves that in "normal" use there could be a danger from condensation within the piano, which has always been one of my concerns.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: Old Dog] #1378482
02/19/10 10:21 PM
02/19/10 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Dog
.....I have a Ph.D. in physics, so I always enjoy free-spirited challenges....

....and we're glad you're here. smile

BTW......that whole post was awesome.

I imagine that someone like you just rolls his eyes when people say essentially "It's true because I know it's true."
And so do I.

Re: I don't believe that Damp Chaser is very useful for grand [Re: SeilerFan] #1378504
02/19/10 11:04 PM
02/19/10 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SeilerFan
Also, not to forget: Not all piano technicians and piano dealers recommend the DC system or remain skeptical about it. This is not the majority but I've talked to a number of really knowledgeable well-respected professionals that question the system's effectiveness. This is not to say that they are right. However, sometimes people make it sound as if "the professionals" as a whole would agree on this subject. This is not true.

Just wanted to repeat Seilerfan's post!

Would also like to say that excessive dryness is more damaging to pianos than humidity, and I have seen countless times where a Dampp-chaser system has dried out a piano action, making it noisy, loose, and out of regulation. Most of the time, it was not installed properly - placement of heating rods, number of heating rods, wattage of heating rods, and use of a thermostatic control are all factors that make the installation of the 'dampp-chaser' part of the system unpredictable.

In other words, you still have to be careful of these units, and make sure they are installed and maintained properly. I think they are more useful in dry climates than in humid ones. It is harder to deliver the drying effect evenly to the soundboard and action. I have never installed one on my own piano, but if I lived in a cold climate with dry heating in winter I would consider it - humidifier only!


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