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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1377569
02/18/10 07:34 PM
02/18/10 07:34 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
key-up samples - is it key-off resonance? if yes it is audible, very subtle with default setting, only obvious once I turned it off (0) and maxed (10) to know what to look for smile
pedal down - yes, very subtle with default setting
pedal up - can't hear
sympathetic resonance - when I test it myself I definitely hear it on my piano; not as trained to know if it's in mp3

Im sorry for some glitches you can hear on first notes. I tried recording this 3 times and I always had 2 or 3 glitches somewhere in the file. This one was actually least intrusive. If it's unsatisfying I can give it another go.
I didn't touch the file (no equalization), only boosted +5dB input level in Audition while recording.

Thanks! The levels in the file are better. And glitches aren't that big of a deal. I archived the file at the share point. Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I still don't hear key-up or pedal sounds, and I don't hear or see sympathetic resonance:

[Linked Image]
An amplitude view of the second and third phases of the sympathetic resonance test.

Normally the right hand tail amplitude looks larger and sounds different (spacier) than the one on the left if there is sympathetic resonance. Here they look identical.

If you want to turn all the effects up and give it another go, I'd definitely be interested! Hope this isn't driving you too crazy.

I also notice the extra pedal event in the DPBSD v1.4 file is particularly revealing of the partial pedaling in your HP, which is nice to see. You have to push the pedal most of the way down I suppose before you start hearing the effect?

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1377573
02/18/10 07:42 PM
02/18/10 07:42 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Oh. I thought the firmware update was supposed to fix this? Or was that another Kawai model?


Please re-read my post - I wasn't certain that a firmware update would improve string/damper resonance, just that "it's quite possible". Batak suggested that these additional effects could indeed be heard when playing back the MIDI file, hence my suggestion to update the firmware.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Rodney] #1377666
02/18/10 10:48 PM
02/18/10 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rodney
... Keyboards/DPs trounce sample libraries for that feeling of being connected to the instrument and the better instruments are "Good Enough" in their realism to not leave you feeling like you are playing anything other than a Piano.


That is also my experience. I would rather play my MP8 than Ivory or Pianoteq. The MP8 experience is much more immediate.

ocd

Last edited by ocd; 02/18/10 10:50 PM. Reason: fixing typo.

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1377886
02/19/10 05:42 AM
02/19/10 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I'll check the settings when I get home, they were probably left default.
Originally Posted by dewster
Normally the right hand tail amplitude looks larger and sounds different (spacier) than the one on the left if there is sympathetic resonance. Here they look identical.

I'll listen with headphones directly on the piano this particular part of midi file and report back. Maybe I took sympathetic resonance for another effect. Im not really that good in this terminology frown
Originally Posted by dewster
If you want to turn all the effects up and give it another go, I'd definitely be interested! Hope this isn't driving you too crazy.

No problem at all smile
Originally Posted by dewster
I also notice the extra pedal event in the DPBSD v1.4 file is particularly revealing of the partial pedaling in your HP, which is nice to see. You have to push the pedal most of the way down I suppose before you start hearing the effect?

I think I have to press the pedal quite low to start hearing it but that's by no means objective observation. My previous piano didn't support half-pedaling and generaly my foot's become accustomed to pressing all the way down or releasing all the way up. During my piano lessons on my teacher's grand I got sometimes told to press less on some parts of music but there was just no means for me to practice half-pedaling. Since I don't have any experience with this I can't tell if what my piano simulates is how pianos should work or if the effect should start earlier.
I guess I could sit with headphones and try to evaluate at which point exactly I start hearing this. I should probably teach my foot to press with less force anyway and listen what effect it can really bring. Oh the joy of new options, gotta try it on Debussy laugh

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1378053
02/19/10 12:20 PM
02/19/10 12:20 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Please re-read my post - I wasn't certain that a firmware update would improve string/damper resonance, just that "it's quite possible". Batak suggested that these additional effects could indeed be heard when playing back the MIDI file, hence my suggestion to update the firmware.

My apologies, James. There have been so many firmware update posts it's hard for me to keep them straight. And I hope you don't think that's a veiled dig at you or Kawai.

James, I'm curious. I know your sig says you are employed by Kawai, but your opinions are your own. Are you here in a professional capacity? That is, does Kawai pay you to read and post here? Or are you doing this entirely on your own time? I ask this not to be confrontational in any way, but because I'd rather not pester you with company-related questions to if you are on your own time (unless I absolutely have).

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1378069
02/19/10 12:45 PM
02/19/10 12:45 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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This morning I downloaded the Acoustica Pianissimo and ran the DPBSD over it. I believe the only limitation to the demo is that it will time-out after 14 days, which is really nice. The stand-alone mode could use a WAV recorder, but otherwise it is very nicely done and has a built-in MIDI player. I didn't experience any problems with the GUI or with my sound card, it worked right off the bat.

It sounds pretty good given the limited sample size, though the looping of the mids and highs could use some work, as could the sympathetic resonance and partial pedaling. A bit too much stretching for my tastes too.

The loop section of the sample is fairly visible, so I included the lengths of those in the report too.

I like the way Acoustica tells you the sample size and the layer count. This kind of testing wouldn't be so necessary if everyone did that.

MP3 and review are in the archive. I also modified the readme a bit to clarify the general recording procedure.


---------------------------
- Pianissimo 1.0 Build 12 -
---------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_acoustica_pianissimo.mp3
- "Solo Grand Piano" default preset, reverb off, master volume 70%.
- Stand-alone mode, Echo MIA SPDIF I/O, Adobe Audition.
PROS:
- Note decay is nice and long, with low note loops long enough to "wobble".
- Large dynamic range (~50dB, vel=1:127).
- Key up and pedal samples.
- 4 velocity layers.
- Velocity layer switch @ vel=54,80,102.
- Fairly good velocity layer matching with possible filtering.
- Some kind of sympathetic resonance? Fairly subtle.
CONS:
- Note decay is looped, so timbre evolution is lacking (needs progressive LP filter).
- C6 to C9 loops are audible, too short and fake sounding.
- Obviously stretched, group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 4,3,4,2,2,2,1,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,1(x5),2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,1(x4),2,1,2,1(x19) = 34 groups.
- Sample lengths are (C2:C9) 5.1,7.0,6.6,4.3,3.0,3.4,2.0,? seconds.
- Loop lengths are (C2:C9) 3.5,3.8,1.5,2.7,0.7,0.25,0.22,? seconds.
- Velocity layers clearly visible, not obviously blended.
- Audible velocity layer switch @ vel=54.
- No response to partial pedaling.
- Pedal down sample is a "knock" rather than a "loom of strings".
OTHER:
- C7 sample has small DC offset.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-19


Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1378091
02/19/10 01:05 PM
02/19/10 01:05 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Excellent results from the HP-307. I assume a similar result would be obtained from the new Supernatural upgrade kit for the RD-700GX...

I've been wondering about that myself.

If anyone owns an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade kit (Dr Popper?), if you upload a DPBSD sample I'll definitely spend some time comparing it to the HP-307 to see if there are any differences. This is a very intriguing sampling and playback process that Roland has. It seems almost explicitly designed to foil the DPBSD test (as their videos - that predate the DPBSD test I should add - show)! Too bad it isn't available in a less expensive DP yet.

Last edited by dewster; 02/19/10 02:14 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1378147
02/19/10 02:05 PM
02/19/10 02:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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dewster, I can recall two recent posts related to firmware updates for KAWAI instruments - once in this thread, where I recommended R0B update his MP5 to the latest v1.15 OS, and once in another thread regarding a crackling noise issue with the new CA63.

Quote
James, I'm curious. I know your sig says you are employed by Kawai, but your opinions are your own. Are you here in a professional capacity? That is, does Kawai pay you to read and post here? Or are you doing this entirely on your own time? I ask this not to be confrontational in any way, but because I'd rather not pester you with company-related questions to if you are on your own time (unless I absolutely have).


My primary responsibility at KAWAI Japan is to create owner's manual and brochures for instruments sold overseas, although my job also encompasses a range of other tasks. I visit this forum during my working day, but also - as is the case right now - at home, during my free time. Contributing to this forum allows me to provide information about KAWAI instruments (often correcting mis-information), and also provides an excellent opportunity to communicate with fellow digital piano enthusiasts directly.

In one sense, yes I do consider my presence here in a professional capacity - I have learnt a tremendous amount about digital pianos from fellow forum members including yourself, and believe my work for KAWAI has benefited as a result. However, as I also enjoy visiting the forum in my spare time; reading the thoughts of others, and often posting my own messages, you might say I'm also here in a non-professional capacity too. wink

I really don't mind answering questions related to KAWAI, provided they do not call upon me to reveal potentially harmful information regarding proprietary technology or other confidential matters. I try to be as honest as possible with my posts and responses, aiming to answers queries in a clear, objective manner. At the end of the day, I contribute to PianoWorld out of my own free will - nobody at KAWAI forces me, or even recommends that I maintain a presence here. Indeed, this arguably grants me a degree of freedom to express my own opinions, rather than just be a spokesperson for the company.

I know that there are still a few folks here who appear somewhat sceptical as to whether my intentions are truly genuine, and that's to be expected. All I can really do is just keep on doing what I'm doing - I've been a member of this forum for over two and a half years, and have posted almost 900 messages (most of which have been useful, I hope...) - if I really was a shill, I guess I would have been found by now, surely?

Anyway, I hope that answers your questions. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1378201
02/19/10 02:56 PM
02/19/10 02:56 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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James

Your contributions never seem biased towards Kawai to me. In fact I sometimes think you could go further than you do in publicizing the unique selling points of the Kawai product. You are also very gracious in your praise for the products of the other makers where you feel this is deserved. And you support Norwich FC.

Cheers

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1378252
02/19/10 03:58 PM
02/19/10 03:58 PM
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What? You don't support Ipswich Town FC, Steve? What price loyalty, these days?

Oh, and +1 with regard to KAWAI James' great contribution.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1378281
02/19/10 04:56 PM
02/19/10 04:56 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Thank you James for clarifying the nature of your presence on this board. You have indeed been unfailingly helpful and fair in your advice to others, which is something I think we can all very much appreciate, and you should be highly commended for it.

And let me apologize again for my earlier brash (some, including myself I'm afraid, would say rude) behavior towards you. Please forgive me.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19] #1378289
02/19/10 05:02 PM
02/19/10 05:02 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zaba19
Originally Posted by dewster
Are you recording to a 44.1kHz 32 bit float and then saving as MP3?

I'll check the settings when I get home, they were probably left default.

After you open Audition to record, do this:

File | New...

and set the "Sample Rate" to "44100",
the "Channels" to "Stereo",
and the "Resolution" to "32-bit (float)".

Then click "OK".

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1378291
02/19/10 05:05 PM
02/19/10 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
If anyone owns an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade kit

And if anyone owns an RD-700GX without the Supernatural upgrade kit, an MP3 would be welcome, too, because I think the RD-700GX's AP is different compared to the already tested RD-700SX.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi] #1378302
02/19/10 05:31 PM
02/19/10 05:31 PM
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Yes, the GX introduced the "Expressive Grand", which is supposed to be its principle piano voice in addition to the carry-over of the two sample sets from the SX (Superior and another that I can't remember). Having played the GX I don't think from memory that I was blown away by the Expressive Grand...it was ok but nothing special as I recall but certainly worth testing for the DPBSD.

Voxpops...Ipswich Town FC...pah!

Cheers,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1378357
02/19/10 06:38 PM
02/19/10 06:38 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Thank you for the kinds words chaps. wink

dewster, no problem. We had a bit of a rough patch a few months ago, but that's all in the past - I think you've more than made up for all that by providing lots of great technical insights for all us DP geeks. wink

voxpops, Steve's a "Lew-stuff boi" - torn between Canary Green and Tractor Blue. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1378383
02/19/10 07:04 PM
02/19/10 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Dewster, adding your interpretation of the test to the subjective impression of the sound of the notes, what is your favourite so far?

Others here seem to have a much more definite and refined opinion of what they want & don't want to hear in terms of sound than I do. That's why I tend to limit my subjective comments to the technical results of the test, rather than the tone. For instance, I feel competent enough to say whether string decay sounds realistic or not, but not whether a particular midrange sounds like a Steinway or not. I also try to judge older instruments in the context of their time and their peers, but I'm not the world's best DP historian.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1378388
02/19/10 07:09 PM
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Ha ha! Lew-stuff boi...said like a true carrot-cruncher. Try using a bit of authentic East Anglian gibberish in Hamamatsu! "thas on the huh boy!" Off topic or what?!


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1378393
02/19/10 07:12 PM
02/19/10 07:12 PM
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Fair comments Dewster...In terms of subjective impressions if I could arrange a virtual DP showroom I would love the play the Yamaha CP1 (and 5) against an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade against a new Kawai MP with the improved action and Ultra Progressive Harmonic doo-dahs etc.

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1378633
02/20/10 03:54 AM
02/20/10 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Fair comments Dewster...In terms of subjective impressions if I could arrange a virtual DP showroom I would love the play the Yamaha CP1 (and 5) against an RD-700GX with the Supernatural upgrade against a new Kawai MP with the improved action and Ultra Progressive Harmonic doo-dahs etc.

Steve


Yes, and for those of us who aren't lucky enough to already own one, said showroom would also contain a Roland VPiano in the line up.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi] #1378800
02/20/10 01:17 PM
02/20/10 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi
And if anyone owns an RD-700GX without the Supernatural upgrade kit, an MP3 would be welcome, too, because I think the RD-700GX's AP is different compared to the already tested RD-700SX.

I welcome any and all DPBSD MP3 files. I kind of prefer newer stuff with possible wider interest, but older stuff is fine too.

It's kind of incredible that everyone has been doing pretty much the same damn thing for the last 10 years, with the introduction of layer blending only very recently. The engineering process apparently always starts with a small fixed ROM size and works backwards from there.

Unfortunately, I haven't reviewed very many that are complex enough to support a "soul", or even be considered alive in any significant way. These days, DPs with 2 second looped and stretched samples, however well done, are dangerously skirting the toy category IMO. Armed with the DPBSD, I can rest easier knowing I won't get stuck paying big bucks for old school crap dressed up in fancy new trappings.

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