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#1377879 - 02/19/10 05:22 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: cast12]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by cast12


I'm just pointing out that even if women had been able to compose more easily during the 1700's and 1800's, we still wouldn't have a female Chopin or Brahms, let alone Bach or Beethoven


Why not?

Last edited by stores; 02/19/10 05:26 AM.


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#1377880 - 02/19/10 05:25 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway

The OP asked why there has not been a famous female composer. The reason is that female just are unable to attain that level.


Why aren't they?



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1377881 - 02/19/10 05:31 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: stores]  
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#1377882 - 02/19/10 05:32 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: pno]  
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Originally Posted by pno
Originally Posted by LimeFriday
...And you wonder why more women have not risen to the top in various spheres... not only do woman have to have the talent, determination and persistence to achieve... we have to battle beliefs and attitudes such as this.



I think the feminist movement has spent way too much time and effort "battling beliefs and attitudes". Don't you think if those activists spent their time composing, they would have gotten better results?


Judging from this thread, they have quite a lot of time yet to spend on the battle.

But there are plenty of women composers today who aren't directly part of that battle, and as a matter of fact, yes, they are often getting quite good results, and performances. But of course, that gets to a whole other problem today, which is that so many music lovers aren't interested in new music, regardless of the composer's genital status.


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#1377883 - 02/19/10 05:34 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by pno

Actually, it's my mom who first told me that guys perform better even in the domains that are traditionally considered female activities, and I totally agree with her.



So you mom's poor self esteem is a source of your problem with perspective. I'm starting to get the picture...



wr, news to you: you cannot change people's perspective by having a big ego. Having a big ego does not make you great. You are great because you demonstrate you can do it, not because you have a big ego. Does it make sense?

There is NO reason to believe that female are dumber than men. But they usually choose to have a different focus, be it on family, or children.

There is NO reason to believe that women cannot be great composers, (or pianists, chefs, tailors, filmmakers, conductors, philosophers, scientists, etc). But they need to do it first.

Until that time, the fact remains that there are many more great male composers than female ones.

Get the picture?


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#1377884 - 02/19/10 05:35 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: ChopinAddict]  
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#1377891 - 02/19/10 05:49 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by pno
Originally Posted by LimeFriday
...And you wonder why more women have not risen to the top in various spheres... not only do woman have to have the talent, determination and persistence to achieve... we have to battle beliefs and attitudes such as this.



I think the feminist movement has spent way too much time and effort "battling beliefs and attitudes". Don't you think if those activists spent their time composing, they would have gotten better results?


Judging from this thread, they have quite a lot of time yet to spend on the battle.

But there are plenty of women composers today who aren't directly part of that battle, and as a matter of fact, yes, they are often getting quite good results, and performances. But of course, that gets to a whole other problem today, which is that so many music lovers aren't interested in new music, regardless of the composer's genital status.



Kudos to these women composers. We need more of them! They are the ones who genuinely help changing the "prejudice".

Less feminist activists, more female composers. Prove it by doing it.

Last edited by pno; 02/19/10 05:50 AM.

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#1377896 - 02/19/10 06:08 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: ChopinAddict]  
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict


That's an interesting list, but not complete. For example, it doesn't include a couple of notable women composers who have had major operas premiered in the last few years: Unsuk Chin and Olga Neuwirth.

#1377903 - 02/19/10 06:19 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: pno]  
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Originally Posted by pno
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by pno

Actually, it's my mom who first told me that guys perform better even in the domains that are traditionally considered female activities, and I totally agree with her.



So you mom's poor self esteem is a source of your problem with perspective. I'm starting to get the picture...



wr, news to you: you cannot change people's perspective by having a big ego. Having a big ego does not make you great. You are great because you demonstrate you can do it, not because you have a big ego. Does it make sense?



As a reply to what was posted, no, it doesn't make sense.

Quote


There is NO reason to believe that female are dumber than men. But they usually choose to have a different focus, be it on family, or children.

There is NO reason to believe that women cannot be great composers, (or pianists, chefs, tailors, filmmakers, conductors, philosophers, scientists, etc). But they need to do it first.

Until that time, the fact remains that there are many more great male composers than female ones.

Get the picture?


Get what picture? Doing it first requires an environment in which that would be possible, and historically, there's a lot of evidence it wasn't possible. The thread is about why it didn't happen, and not so much the current or future situation in which conditions might (or for other reasons, might not) be more favorable. That quote from Fanny Mendelssohn's dad should be enough to convince anyone. And word was, Fanny was actually even more talented a composer than brother Felix, before she was squelched.


#1377904 - 02/19/10 06:21 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: wr]  
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Nothing needs to be proven - this is a thread asking "WHY?" - pretty much everyone agrees it's been a bloke's game in the European western art music tradition.... (and probably quite a few other traditions also, but certainly not all of them)......


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#1377908 - 02/19/10 06:35 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Kreisler]  
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Hildegard von Bingen. Would she have been able to compose or even get the education if she had not been a nun?

It should also be noted that creating an artistic work, or performing brilliantly is one thing. Getting that artistic work shown or read or published, and then out to the public - ditto for performance - is another. There is a business end of it, and willing partners who will help make it happen. That's where society comes in. And that may include access to education and training.


Last edited by keystring; 02/19/10 06:39 AM. Reason: added par.
#1377976 - 02/19/10 09:47 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: keystring]  
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I wonder why are there more men Pope than women. Maybe men are better than women at religious stuff...

I find that, if not correctly position, a question can lead to any kind of silly conclusions, delusions, discussions etc... Even if the original question could make sense under a certain light.

And I am happy to see that there are at least a few answers that really make sense and try to build/explain something, keep up the good work.


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#1377984 - 02/19/10 10:19 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: ChopinAddict]  
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict


they are not famous frown


Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

#1378004 - 02/19/10 10:55 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Batuhan]  
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And that's a different problem, isn't it?

There are many excellent female composers who have written a great deal in the last hundred years, yet their works remain relatively unknown. In the last few years, I've performed music by Dring, Decruck, van Appledorn and Zaimont, and I regularly use music by Telfer, Rahbee, and Louie in my teaching.

One thing I've noticed is that it often takes some leadership and strong teachers to get things moving. The RCM syllabus in Canada has been very proactive about promoting the music of Canadian composers, and it's really helped bring the music of Canadian women to light.

I wish teachers here in the states were a little more proactive about modern music. A lot of teachers still think Bartok is modern and Muczynski is cutting edge.


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#1378043 - 02/19/10 11:54 AM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Kreisler]  
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Let's not discuss something in the past (different conditions). Let's talk something far more smaller scale such as song writing, arranging, conducting, etc. For the last 50 years, it seems that men have dominated the top positions, such as John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Marvin Hamlsich, etc, etc.

Have there been a big name female arrangers, conductors, song writers, etc, etc. I cannot think one.

Don't women have the same freedom to sit and write a 2 ot 3 min songs? Women have exactly the same opportunities. But they still do not produce music at the same level as men. What is missing in this equition?

Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 02/19/10 12:01 PM.
#1378052 - 02/19/10 12:20 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Don't women have the same freedom to sit and write a 2 ot 3 min songs? Women have exactly the same opportunities. But they still do not produce music at the same level as men. What is missing in this equition?
No, on both bolds, sadly. And I said earlier this thread is a proof of that!

BTW:

Lady Gaga,
St. Vincent
Badi Assad

to name a few successful creators in the pop industry.

#1378062 - 02/19/10 12:34 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Have there been a big name female arrangers, conductors, song writers, etc, etc. I cannot think one.


As for singer-songwriters:

Dolly Parton
Joan Baez
Petula Clark
Joni Mitchell
Loretta Lynn
Madonna

And many of the women associated with Lilith Fair.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1378064 - 02/19/10 12:39 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Don't women have the same freedom to sit and write a 2 ot 3 min songs? Women have exactly the same opportunities. But they still do not produce music at the same level as men. What is missing in this equition?
No, on both bolds, sadly. And I said earlier this thread is a proof of that!

BTW:

Lady Gaga,
St. Vincent
Badi Assad

to name a few successful creators in the pop industry.


Could you please elaborate what prevents women from having freedom to write pop songs. It is not like a 40 min complex music. It is only melody and chords.

What kinds of things that prevent women from having the same opportunty as men? Women can promote her work or performance abilty via Youtube. For example Valentina Litsissa. She promoted herself via Youtube.

These days, women can become a CEO, so I do not believe women do not have the same opportunity, especially writing songs. If the songs are good, people will listen and buy, regardless the artist female or male.


Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 02/19/10 12:44 PM.
#1378072 - 02/19/10 12:48 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Have there been a big name female arrangers, conductors, song writers, etc, etc. I cannot think one.


As for singer-songwriters:

Dolly Parton
Joan Baez
Petula Clark
Joni Mitchell
Loretta Lynn
Madonna

And many of the women associated with Lilith Fair.


That Island in the Stream song was not written by Dolly Parton. It was by Bee Gees.

Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 02/19/10 12:55 PM.
#1378078 - 02/19/10 12:53 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Could you please elaborate what prevents women from having freedom to write pop songs. It is not like a 40 min complex music. It is only melody and chords.
The mentality of various people (including members in here and in this thread), perhaps?

And to think that me and Kreisler both provided names of VERY successful female creators! Are you sure you got that?

Quote
What kinds of things that prevent women from having the same opportunty as men? Women can promote her work or performance abilty via Youtube. For example Valentina Litsissa. She promoted herself via Youtube.
Social reasons and the mentality of various people (including members in here and in this thread), perhaps?

Quote
These days, women can become a CEO, so I do not believe women do not have the same opportunity, especially writing songs. If the songs are good, people will listen and buy, regardless the artist female or male.
Considering that you actually believe that women cannot be successful as composers, what else is left to say? You simply cannot accept this as a possibility, right?

I mean what is it that you don't get? You don't accept the fact that women can be as good as men in composing. This alone creates the problem: Your reception of what women can do is heavily biased!

#1378080 - 02/19/10 12:54 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Let's not discuss something in the past (different conditions).

What were the different conditions? It was only posted so you could make fun of another poster for his profession?
I just want to clarify your argument:
1) In this thread you said that as a general rule, composers aren't real musicians because they only started doing so as a result of lack of talent at performing.
2) Here, you're saying that female performers (such as Valentina Lisitsa) are able to freely market themselves so find just as much success as men. Yet you fault them for not doing the same with composition.

I can only conclude from your two statements that there are fewer famous female composers because fewer failed at making it as performers than men. Or did you have a different train of thought? Please enlighten us. If you're only saying these things to be deliberately argumentative and belittle others, then maybe it's time we started to ignore your posts so that the discussion can be more constructive.

#1378084 - 02/19/10 12:57 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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If RS wants to know why more women didn't compose he only needs to look at recent history. The lastest wave of the Women's Liberation Movement is only 50 years old. It is still in its infancy, as evidenced by the reactionary, chauvinistic comments in this thread. Women in western culture are still fighting for equal opportunities. Sadly, there are still many cultures where women are completely oppressed.

Ronald, you want to hear what kinds of things prevent women from succeeding?? Here are some of my experiences: In my 20's I was denied access to adacemic scholarships in a male dominated field because I was female. I remember being told by the high school guidance counselor: "You don't want to take physics. There are only boys in that class and you wouldn't be comfortable there." I remember being told I had to sweetly provide coffee for my boss' visitors even though this was way out of the purview of my job and my desk was completely on the other side of the building. There were men much closer. I remember asking why I was assigned to demonstrate something at an electronics convention in another city when I did not have the skills. I was told point blank that it was because I had big breasts. This was not that long ago.

Women have been and still are being denied opportunities and education. Saying there are fewer famous women composers because they lack potential is small minded and ignores the fact that women were denied education and opportunities. It will take time for women to take their rightful place beside men in all fields. There are fewer famous composers because society denied them the ability to step forward. (I suspect many men deny women's potential out of fear they will be surpassed. Women are not looking for dominance. We just want equality.)


Best regards,

Deborah
#1378088 - 02/19/10 01:03 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: gooddog]  
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Whoosh!

WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!


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#1378089 - 02/19/10 01:04 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by Kreisler
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Have there been a big name female arrangers, conductors, song writers, etc, etc. I cannot think one.


As for singer-songwriters:

Dolly Parton
Joan Baez
Petula Clark
Joni Mitchell
Loretta Lynn
Madonna

And many of the women associated with Lilith Fair.


That Island in the Stream song was not written by Dolly Parton. It was by Bee Gees.

And most of Petula's big hits were written by Tony Hatch.


Jason
#1378122 - 02/19/10 01:41 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: gooddog]  
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Originally Posted by gooddog
If RS wants to know why more women didn't compose he only needs to look at recent history. The lastest wave of the Women's Liberation Movement is only 50 years old. It is still in its infancy, as evidenced by the reactionary, chauvinistic comments in this thread. Women in western culture are still fighting for equal opportunities. Sadly, there are still many cultures where women are completely oppressed.

Ronald, you want to hear what kinds of things prevent women from succeeding?? Here are some of my experiences: In my 20's I was denied access to adacemic scholarships in a male dominated field because I was female. I remember being told by the high school guidance counselor: "You don't want to take physics. There are only boys in that class and you wouldn't be comfortable there." I remember being told I had to sweetly provide coffee for my boss' visitors even though this was way out of the perview of my job and my desk was completely on the other side of the building. There were men much closer. I remember asking why I was assigned to demonstrate something at an electronic convention when I did not have the skills. I was told point blank that it was because I had big breasts. This was not that long ago.

Women have been and still are being denied opportunities and education. Saying there are fewer famous women composers because they lack potential is small minded and ignores the fact that women were denied education and opportunities. It will take time for women to take their rightful place beside men in all fields. There are fewer famous composers because society denied them the ability to step forward. (I suspect many men deny women's potential out of fear they will be surpassed. Women on not looking for dominance. We just want equality.)


I agree with what you say about education, work etc.
However, it is just writing music. The products will speak by itself, there are place to advertize. In the corporate world the situations are different. The majority needs to like you as a person in order for them to hire you.

Music is different, if you perform well, you will win the competition. I do not see the analogy between academia, corporate world and writing music or playing music. Again the products speak.

#1378131 - 02/19/10 01:47 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
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A corporate atmosphere is representative of the atmosphere in all of society. You can pretend that the musical world stands outside of prejudice but it doesn't. You can't advertize if you husband holds the purse strings or refuses to let you publish. If you were not married society assumed there was something wrong with you. If you were a performer, it was assumed you were a prostitute. Imagine having the talent but being forced to damage your reputation or hide behind your husband's trousers (or change your name to a male one.)

As you say, "let the products speak": One of the reasons women are now taking their rightful places in world class orchestras is because auditions are conducted behind a screen!


Best regards,

Deborah
#1378160 - 02/19/10 02:19 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: stores]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway

The OP asked why there has not been a famous female composer. The reason is that female just are unable to attain that level.


Why aren't they?


I guess I'll ask again. Please tell me WHY Ron.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#1378161 - 02/19/10 02:20 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: stores]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by cast12


I'm just pointing out that even if women had been able to compose more easily during the 1700's and 1800's, we still wouldn't have a female Chopin or Brahms, let alone Bach or Beethoven


Why not?


Asking once again...please tell me WHY.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1378165 - 02/19/10 02:28 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: gooddog]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,636
RonaldSteinway Offline
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RonaldSteinway  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by gooddog
A corporate atmosphere is representative of the atmosphere in all of society. You can pretend that the musical world stands outside of prejudice but it doesn't. You can't advertize if you husband holds the purse strings or refuses to let you publish. If you were not married society assumed there was something wrong with you. If you were a performer, it was assumed you were a prostitute. Imagine having the talent but being forced to damage your reputation or hide behind your husband's trousers (or change your name to a male one.)

As you say, "let the products speak": One of the reasons women are now taking their rightful places in world class orchestras is because auditions are conducted behind a screen!


There are many things in our life that functions very similar to corp life. My sister is a professor at a medical school in Southern Calif, she told me that it is very difficult for a white female to become a faculty there, but it is easier for Asian female. The reasons is that white females are hard to control them. It is better to have Asian female faculties (easy to be controlled). The hardest is for Asian male to be faculty member of this medical school.

I agree with audition. The physical look and charisma of the artist are one of the major consideration. If they (the men) do not like you, how great your performance, you will not be hired.

Composing is totally different. Society does not pay attention to the composers, as long as the music sounds good, they buy. I do not know who Michael Buble was, I heard his music first and like it. I careless whether the composer male or female. I am not convinced about your argument stating that women have many restrictions in music composing industry.

Again product speaks louder than the creator.





Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 02/19/10 02:34 PM.
#1378166 - 02/19/10 02:29 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RonaldSteinway]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 180
daro Offline
Full Member
daro  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 180
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Let's not discuss something in the past (different conditions). Let's talk something far more smaller scale such as song writing, arranging, conducting, etc. For the last 50 years, it seems that men have dominated the top positions, such as John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Marvin Hamlsich, etc, etc.

Have there been a big name female arrangers, conductors, song writers, etc, etc. I cannot think one.

Don't women have the same freedom to sit and write a 2 ot 3 min songs? Women have exactly the same opportunities. But they still do not produce music at the same level as men. What is missing in this equition?


Diane Warren is probably the most successful songwriter in the world alive right now, with over 80 Top 10 hits, and a career that very few men in history have ever even come close to matching.

Anyway, I hope you realize that with every post, you're providing the women's rights movement with evidence that men have absolutely no intelligence at all.

Thinking about it a little more, I would add Linda Perry to the list of songwriters with numerous smash hits in the last 10 years, and above and beyond even these, I'd add Carole Kaye, who composed and performed the bass lines on just about every single hit of the '60's and '70's.

Last edited by daro; 02/19/10 02:49 PM.
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