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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: keystring] #1377077
02/18/10 04:33 AM
02/18/10 04:33 AM
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Hong Kong
Jeff Hao Offline
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I guess this is where a "silent piano forum" will not help as much as sitting down with a teacher (such as Elissa) in front of the a piano smile.

Here is how E leads to Am in a A minor scaled song ...
Here is a Dorian song in A minor, with G not raised, but F raised, by half a step ... and we should expect to hear an Em leading to Am? But does he get the girl?

smile

Thank you both, Keystring and Elissa.

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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: keystring] #1377080
02/18/10 04:40 AM
02/18/10 04:40 AM
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Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Elissa Milne Offline
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The Doors used the Dorian mode a lot: the distinctive riff from Riders on the Storm used the characteristic major IV harmonies beautifully, and that same harmonic sequence is at the start of the accompaniment for Michael Jackson's Billy Jean. Once you know what it sounds like you will hear this progression EVERYWHERE in popular music.

The Dorian mode is also the pattern used in the music for the fabulous American Beauty, and for the theme music for Six Feet Under. Anytime you hear that American Beauty sound you are hearing two distinct musical markers: that xylophone tone colour and the Dorian mode.

All really modern-sounding music eschews the use of that raised 7th to mark a return to the tonic. There's plenty of music being composed today that is still using traditional diatonic harmonic thinking, but it doesn't sound like it's from 'now'.....

I wrote a blog piece about this aspect of contemporary tonal writing, and I named it The Dominant is Daggy (http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/the-dominant-is-daggy/) and in the conversations I had with people following posting this (mostly on facebook sadly, so there's not the whole trail in my blog) we nailed it down as being the Major Dominant that is daggy - and the raised 7th!!

This is all quite specific, and really only of interest to people caring about the Dorian mode......

BUT all modes have a clear and definite sense of 'home' about them, unless the composer is deliberately wanting to blur the boundaries (rare in the 20th/21st century, unless the composer is dodgy!).


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1377096
02/18/10 05:20 AM
02/18/10 05:20 AM
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Canada
keystring Offline
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Thank you, Elissa - I guess I'll start listening. wink I see that I was wrong in my guess about tonal home, but what you wrote about the modern world not wanting to say "the end" is similar to my wondering about cadences (which say 'the end'). Essentially that is what your blog says, and carries it further.

The idea of daggy Dominants is intriguing.


Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: keystring] #1377104
02/18/10 05:42 AM
02/18/10 05:42 AM
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Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Elissa Milne Offline
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;-)


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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: keystring] #1377105
02/18/10 05:43 AM
02/18/10 05:43 AM
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Studio Joe Offline
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Elissa, interesring article and very well written.


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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Studio Joe] #1377140
02/18/10 07:27 AM
02/18/10 07:27 AM
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Canonie Offline
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Quote
BUT all modes have a clear and definite sense of 'home' about them, unless the composer is deliberately wanting to blur the boundaries (rare in the 20th/21st century, unless the composer is dodgy!).

Ok I'm dodgy. At least some of the time laugh
I remember when I first wrote a short song in a Major key, it was years before I could force myself to do this, but finally ...I conquered wink

Keystring, sometimes composers relish the things that "don't work" as it forces a creative solution that may be new and captivating. One can compose without thinking of any chords or chord progressions at all. And it's possible to compose without cadence points. Thinking outside the box might be exciting, but not so useful in a harmony class.


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Canonie] #1377142
02/18/10 07:31 AM
02/18/10 07:31 AM
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted by Canonie
Quote
BUT all modes have a clear and definite sense of 'home' about them, unless the composer is deliberately wanting to blur the boundaries (rare in the 20th/21st century, unless the composer is dodgy!).

Ok I'm dodgy. At least some of the time laugh
I remember when I first wrote a short song in a Major key, it was years before I could force myself to do this, but finally ...I conquered wink


Maybe I didn't phrase it quite clearly - I meant that IF a composer is using a mode THEN there will always be a clear sense of home (unless the composer is dodgy). Composers who don't use modes aren't dodgy at all- and I think you are implying that you don't!

Last edited by Elissa Milne; 02/18/10 07:33 AM.

Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1377154
02/18/10 07:50 AM
02/18/10 07:50 AM
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LOL No I am implying, trying to say that I use modes all the time. (Of regular major and minor scales, the natural minor is the only one I use much). And I might use modes in such a way to undermine or blur a sense of tonic, or have it shift around. Think "not quite regular" music. And I might use a mode that I don't know the name of, i.e. I decided on my own group of notes, whether or not someone somewhere has given it a name. I think mode is still the right word for this, yes? Or should I use scale?
A few of my "invented" modes, and some other scale/modes in existence don't have a tonal centre, you have to put them in yourself. So by you're post I am blurry and thus dodgy I think. I like being dodgy so not offended in any way.

I hope this is a little clearer. Enjoyable topic smile


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1377716
02/18/10 11:05 PM
02/18/10 11:05 PM
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Hong Kong
Jeff Hao Offline
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Elissa,

Just read your article on your blog with great interest, and left a comment there awaiting your approval smile.

Jeff

Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Canonie] #1377735
02/18/10 11:35 PM
02/18/10 11:35 PM
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted by Canonie
LOL No I am implying, trying to say that I use modes all the time. (Of regular major and minor scales, the natural minor is the only one I use much). And I might use modes in such a way to undermine or blur a sense of tonic, or have it shift around. Think "not quite regular" music. And I might use a mode that I don't know the name of, i.e. I decided on my own group of notes, whether or not someone somewhere has given it a name. I think mode is still the right word for this, yes? Or should I use scale?
A few of my "invented" modes, and some other scale/modes in existence don't have a tonal centre, you have to put them in yourself. So by you're post I am blurry and thus dodgy I think. I like being dodgy so not offended in any way.

I hope this is a little clearer. Enjoyable topic smile


Hmm, I think this might be blurry semantics rather than blurry tonics!! If your mode doesn't have a tonal centre then it's not really functioning as a mode - that is to say, using only white notes you could be in C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian or B Locrian - which mode you are in will depend on which note is functioning as 'home'. I would be enormously surprised if you couldn't tell which note was 'home' in say any 5-8 bar section of the music. If you only ever use white notes, but 'home' changes, then you are simply modulating AND moving between modes at the same time.

Lots of songs written in the past 50 years flicker between two modes throughout and it is this flickering that creates the harmonic tension, rather than a modulation - but of course in this case it's very very clear where the two tonics are.

My interest is now piqued - I need to hear some of this 'blurry' music!!!


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Jeff Hao] #1377736
02/18/10 11:37 PM
02/18/10 11:37 PM
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hao
Elissa,

Just read your article on your blog with great interest, and left a comment there awaiting your approval smile.

Jeff


Thanks Jeff - your comment is fantastic - I must pull out those Pink Floyd albums!!


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1377963
02/19/10 08:27 AM
02/19/10 08:27 AM
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Yes blurry words get in the way of describing music.

I am thinking of modes in a wider sense, not just "white notes" modes (the names of which I can never remember). So there may not be a tonal centre because that is the way it's defined (or played!) for a particular composition. I really like modes with some symmetry, or pairs of modes with symmetries between them, or modes consisting of 2 halves that are the same. If you make no strong tonal centre then you can move a "pretend" tonal centre deliberately to different pitches. Not necessarily sounding harsh by the way. Also there might be sections with a pull and sections without. I like to transpose and to combine modes to find something richer, and to find emotional effect.

Think of Messiaen (although not necessarily modes of limited transposition) to give an idea of what this might sound like. This example sounds modal without clear tonal centres, yet with familiar sounds of melody and harmony, sort of...
Quatour pour la fin du temps 7th

Sorry for drifting way off topic but I hope OP has been happy with earlier useful posts smile


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Canonie] #1378652
02/20/10 04:21 AM
02/20/10 04:21 AM
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You know rondeau, I think I will try your particular way of going from minor to major for my students. Remembering it as a physical thing under the fingers will be easier to visualise and feel, not just hear. Although "down a minor 3rd from major scale amounts to the same thing, it is less memorable evidenced by my smart students who always let me know when my teaching is not useful smile

I have a relative minor template piece that I teach to beginners after about 6 - 12 months, but I often forget to refer to it later. Must remember! And there was a 2nd template but somewhere along the way we seem to have left out the major key repeat. must fix!!


[Linked Image]
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Canonie] #1378660
02/20/10 05:01 AM
02/20/10 05:01 AM
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Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Canonie: ah yes, I see what you mean - food for good discussion, but I agree that we are now venturing very far from the OP topic......

Back to that topic.

Here's a thought along the lines of the very first post: start with the major scale, repeat with the 3rd flattened - this is the melodic ascending pattern, then repeat keeping this flattened 3rd and also flatten the 6th - now you are playing the harmonic minor scale. This will be MUCH easier for learning your scale patterns than trying to figure out key signatures and then apply them as you play.

If you already know your major scales this will be super easy to apply!


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1378661
02/20/10 05:02 AM
02/20/10 05:02 AM
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Elissa Milne Offline
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And if you want to get funky with your minor patterns:

Flatten the 3rd for the ascending melodic pattern, then also flatten the 7th and you have the Dorian mode [very cool].


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Elissa Milne] #1378694
02/20/10 07:46 AM
02/20/10 07:46 AM
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Thank you for the informative posts that definitely took this thread in an interesting direction. My thinking is that we really didn't go that far OT from my OP. smile As this discussion progresses, I am seeing relationships that I previously was unaware existed.

I am beginning to see how modes, symmetries, and fluid or shifting tonal centers contribute to setting and progression of the story or theme. And it certainly is conceivable how these devices may be cool or "daggy" and how this perception changes over time.

Since the discussion is swinging back around to defining tonal relationships, i.e. major -> harmonic -> melodic -> Dorian, etc., I have to think that these relationships can be used in music composition similar to literary devices.

An example might be where a theme of a piece is classic or familiar and to many listeners predictable. But then somewhere, maybe the climax or the conclusion, the composer switches things up so now we hear the theme played in the relative minor, or the Dorian mode, etc.

Would this not be an example of the composer using these tonal or modal relationships to convey irony or a twist ending?



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Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: rondeau] #1379096
02/20/10 07:23 PM
02/20/10 07:23 PM
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Rondeau
You should do some composing! That is very much how composers think (not all composers, not all the time of course). Ideas like this can take a piece to a new and interesting place. The literary device (or idea from visual art, or architecture, or logic or patterns or philosophy or maths.... any extra-musical idea) is applied in some way to your piece of music. Most results stink, but one or two are interesting.... but oh dear, it is contrived, clunky, too obvious. Then the composer uses Composition Technique to resolve the Problem. When the problem is resolved such that it is fully part of the composition - hurray!

There is a saying that good composers are those who can compose transitions! It's not an easy thing to have your transitions musically logically meaningfully part of the whole. I am really happy with a composition when every part just has to be there. There are no extra bits, nothing that could be changed that would not upset the whole. Nothing sticking out. You may have noticed that new composers write pieces that are just one thing. It moves, gets busier, higher, lower, louder softer. But seems to stay in one musical place. It is very hard as a beginner to move about to new areas without sounding ridiculous or like a teenager. Sort of! Keep in mind that a composer may want to write a piece like this, but being stuck in a sound is something composers talk about.

That's just a few sentences on one way of composing might be like, there is so much more variety and challenge. It can be very intellectually exhilerating; the extra-musical thoughts that are harnessed, and their reflection in the music - it's a sort of double-speak or double-think.
Oh dear! I am raving about a favourite subject. I think I had better make another pot of tea smile


[Linked Image]
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Canonie] #1380150
02/22/10 06:55 AM
02/22/10 06:55 AM
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Hong Kong
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I must come back here to thank Rondeau for posting this thread, and Elissa for summing it up so well in posts #1378660. I have benefited from this thread and really sat down and appreciated my minor scales (starting from the major scale of the same tonic).

On the Dorian mode, I must thank Elissa again. In fact I know the concept but not the sound before this point. But today, I sat down and played with it. In fact, I used all white keys but using D as the starting and finishing note (not sure if calling it tonic is correct or not in this context?). I used left hand to play the Dm chord, and right hand to improvise. It was indeed "very cool". It is a music experience that I only heard before, but not played smile. How nice is that. Thank you.

In the middle of my experiment, I turned and asked my 11-y-o son "how do you like this?". He looked up from his MacBook and said "stop showing off". But then, after a while he asked "who is it by?"

Jeff

Re: major chords / minor scales [Re: Jeff Hao] #1380154
02/22/10 07:14 AM
02/22/10 07:14 AM
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hao
I must come back here to thank Rondeau for posting this thread, and Elissa for summing it up so well in posts #1378660. I have benefited from this thread and really sat down and appreciated my minor scales (starting from the major scale of the same tonic).

On the Dorian mode, I must thank Elissa again. In fact I know the concept but not the sound before this point. But today, I sat down and played with it. In fact, I used all white keys but using D as the starting and finishing note (not sure if calling it tonic is correct or not in this context?). I used left hand to play the Dm chord, and right hand to improvise. It was indeed "very cool". It is a music experience that I only heard before, but not played smile. How nice is that. Thank you.

In the middle of my experiment, I turned and asked my 11-y-o son "how do you like this?". He looked up from his MacBook and said "stop showing off". But then, after a while he asked "who is it by?"

Jeff


Nice!!!! It is honestly the 'cool' minor at this point in history.... And if we were cool we should be practicing the Dorian mode in all 12 chromatic positions much more than any other minor pattern smile


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
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