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#1377297 - 02/18/10 12:40 PM Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ?  
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Batuhan Offline
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Like Beethoven, Hummel, Paganini, Schubert, Berlioz, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Czerny, Liszt, Alkan, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Debussy, Sibelius,Scriabin
Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Ravel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach

all of them are male what is the explanation of this ?


Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

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#1377303 - 02/18/10 12:45 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Batuhan]  
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Read about society during the time of Beethoven, Hummel, Paganini, Schubert, Berlioz, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Czerny, Liszt, Alkan, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Debussy, Sibelius,Scriabin
Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Ravel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach....

You'll find your answer there.

#1377309 - 02/18/10 12:48 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Phlebas]  
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Originally Posted by Phlebas
Read about society during the time of Beethoven, Hummel, Paganini, Schubert, Berlioz, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Czerny, Liszt, Alkan, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Debussy, Sibelius,Scriabin
Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Ravel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach....

You'll find your answer there.


I ask ''Famous'' female Composer read the title carefully. And i dont talk about society i talk about history.

Last edited by Batuhan; 02/18/10 12:49 PM.

Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

#1377310 - 02/18/10 12:49 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Batuhan]  
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Because historically, education was preferentially given to boys and women had to go under pseudonyms to get anything published. I believe that Mendelssohn had some of his sister's music published under his name. Clara Schumann is quite a well-known composer. If you go back even further, there's Hildegard of Bingen. I'm sure others can provide more examples as well.

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#1377311 - 02/18/10 12:49 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Phlebas]  
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Clara Schumann is the only name I can think of but certainly not famous like the others.

#1377316 - 02/18/10 12:52 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Frozenicicles]  
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Originally Posted by Frozenicicles
Because historically, education is preferentially given to boys and women had to go under pseudonyms to get anything published. I believe that Mendelssohn had some of his sister's music published under his name. Clara Schumann is quite a well-known composer. If you go back even further, there's Hildegard of Bingen. I'm sure others can provide more examples as well.


Looks like we both thought of Clara at the same time smile

#1377318 - 02/18/10 12:55 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Less Rubato]  
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There was also Fanny Mendelssohn.

#1377319 - 02/18/10 12:56 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Less Rubato]  
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Here is another way of framing the question:

Why are there many famous female authors, from Jane Austen to Virginia Woolf, but almost no famous female composers?


-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
#1377320 - 02/18/10 12:57 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Less Rubato]  
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Batuhan: The reason is social, not historical, or at least historically social! laugh What did you expect as a reply? That women are not as capable as men in composing? If this is so, it simply isn't true.

I love the works of Gubaidulina, Tansy Davies and many othes... In fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers_by_birth_year

Now, the why they are not as famous... try checking how many females are famous throuhout history and you'll probably also end up in a social reason rather than anything else. EDIT: Indeed writting... sorry about that.

Last edited by Nikolas; 02/18/10 12:58 PM.
#1377325 - 02/18/10 01:01 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
That women are not as capable as men in composing? If this is so, it simply isn't true.

Darn right. Writing was a much more suitable task for a woman than being a professional musician. Performing meant that you had to be in the public eye. Fanny Mendelssohn's father told her that "music will perhaps become his [i.e. Felix's] profession, while for you it can and must be only an ornament." And who knows - perhaps women did compose music privately but it never got performed unless they had male relatives in the business, like Fanny and Clara. Don't forget that history has been written by men.

#1377328 - 02/18/10 01:04 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: John_B]  
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Well what I'll say may be controversial but it also holds a shred of truth.

Scientifically speaking, there are more male geniuses (based on I.Q.) than female (there are also more mentally-challenged men). Males tend to fall on either side of the I.Q. bell curve, so there are less men with average I.Q. than women, but also more men with very high I.Q. Obviously, I.Q. doesn't measure creativity or musical flair, but it is a general indicator of intelligence and when have you known a stupid composer? There aren't many.

As for the "women in society" argument, well yes, during the time of Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Schubert etc. the education of women left a lot to be desired. But I don't think that same argument can be carried forth to the time of Rachmaninoff/Ravel etc. Women were educated in music then, and obviously are to the present day, but yet the vast majority of contemporary composers that I can think of (film composers, new age etc.) are men.

Maybe we're just better at this one particular aspect of human life? After all, we are very different and there are things that women tend to be better at than men.

#1377331 - 02/18/10 01:10 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Read this thread and maybe you'll understand.

I'm not super-feminist here - the role of women as mothers is crucial in human society and sometimes they need to (and should) compromise their careers to take care of children. But I believe it's incorrect to infer that it's due to lack of intelligence.

#1377332 - 02/18/10 01:10 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Batuhan]  
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Originally Posted by Batuhan
Originally Posted by Phlebas
Read about society during the time of Beethoven, Hummel, Paganini, Schubert, Berlioz, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Czerny, Liszt, Alkan, Wagner, Schumann, Brahms, Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Debussy, Sibelius,Scriabin
Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Ravel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach....

You'll find your answer there.


I ask ''Famous'' female Composer read the title carefully. And i dont talk about society i talk about history.


I read your post. Read up on society during the times the composers you listed lived. You'll find your answer there.

Sorry, for the snarkiness, but your question is a bit naive.

#1377334 - 02/18/10 01:12 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Lion
Well what I'll say may be controversial but it also holds a shred of truth.

Scientifically speaking, there are more male geniuses (based on I.Q.) than female (there are also more mentally-challenged men). Males tend to fall on either side of the I.Q. bell curve, so there are less men with average I.Q. than women, but also more men with very high I.Q. Obviously, I.Q. doesn't measure creativity or musical flair, but it is a general indicator of intelligence and when have you known a stupid composer? There aren't many.
Can you share some 'scientific' proof over that? Cause I honestly find not a single shread of truth in the above!

More over, there was a thread about 'talent overater' and another book in teachers forum. You should go check it out and get an idea that talent could be given later in life, rather than born with. Similary the same applied with IQ...

Quote
As for the "women in society" argument, well yes, during the time of Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Schubert etc. the education of women left a lot to be desired. But I don't think that same argument can be carried forth to the time of Rachmaninoff/Ravel etc. Women were educated in music then, and obviously are to the present day, but yet the vast majority of contemporary composers that I can think of (film composers, new age etc.) are men.
When... did women start to vote? I do think much later than Ravel's (general) time. More over if I recall correctly the (2nd) feminist movement was around the 60s, right? (first was around the time of Virginia Woolf, incidently, already mentioned here).

Quote
Maybe we're just better at this one particular aspect of human life? After all, we are very different and there are things that women tend to be better at than men.

Take out the word 'better' and leave the word 'different' and we're fine!

Take it from a guy who's feeding his kids, taking them to showers, putting them to sleep, taking them out to walks, etc, while his wife works (more steadily, as an architect, while her husband is a freelance composer). I tend to think that I'm doing a damn fine job raising my kids, which normally should be a 'female chore'... laugh (Not to mention the pride I take from this and the enjoyement).

Nope we are not the same, but I judge differences on a few physical aspects (when talking about athletics for example), but mainly personality, intelligence, etc. And NOT the sex!

#1377341 - 02/18/10 01:20 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Frozenicicles]  
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"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1377342 - 02/18/10 01:20 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Can you share some 'scientific' proof over that? Cause I honestly find not a single shread of truth in the above!


Yes - there have been numerous studies showing that there are twice as many men falling on the 'extremes' as women. Here's an example of one study conducted by numerous doctors at top universities:

Deary, I.J.; Irwing, P.; Der, G; Bates, T.C. (2005). "Brother–sister differences in the g factor in intelligence: Analysis of full, opposite-sex siblings from the NLSY1979". Intelligence 35:451-456.

Quote
When... did women start to vote? I do think much later than Ravel's (general) time. More over if I recall correctly the (2nd) feminist movement was around the 60s, right? (first was around the time of Virginia Woolf, incidently, already mentioned here).


What about modern day female composers? The vast majority of film/contemporary composers that I know are men.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put them down! Not by any means, I'm not sexist I'm just scientific. I'm not trying to offend anyone.

#1377345 - 02/18/10 01:26 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Yeah... you think the 'world' isn't sexist anymore? Come on.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1377346 - 02/18/10 01:26 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
I love the works of Gubaidulina...


+1

Did you go to any of the concerts in the Barbican/BBC Gubaidulina weekend a few years ago? I recorded much of it when it was broadcast. (I also recorded her St John Passion from the Proms performance in 2002 with Gergiev and the Kirov Orch.)

#1377353 - 02/18/10 01:33 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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So true. Angelina. Substitute any other minority into this discussion and suddenly it becomes too hot to handle.

#1377354 - 02/18/10 01:36 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: John_B]  
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A. Nonymous was a woman - Her only instrument, her voice, her compostions hummed over soup, danced with the broom, crooned over babies, and keened over the dead.


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#1377363 - 02/18/10 01:46 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: -Frycek]  
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Mr. Lion: So the... idea of historically, etc, is gone and you are now refering to contemporary and film composers? I actually know a few female composers in the media. It could very well be that the motherhood could potentially be an issue for a famous career, I can't tell.

BTW, can we put down numbers on how many Greek composers are famous? In all 10 millions of people, the percentage is far from even decent. It's awful. I guess this must mean that Greeks are also different than the rest of the world as far as I intelligence is concerned, right? :P

#1377367 - 02/18/10 01:56 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
BTW, can we put down numbers on how many Greek composers are famous? In all 10 millions of people, the percentage is far from even decent. It's awful.


Well, Xenakis makes up for the low numbers. thumb

#1377369 - 02/18/10 01:58 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RealPlayer]  
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LMAO!

There's also me! Bouahahahahahaha! (honestly a joke! I promise, I swear).

A couple of names very worth of mentioning ,since I'm at it are:
Yanni Christou
and
Theodor Antoniou

Both are stunning, resemble nothing of the rest of us Greeks! laugh In all very worthy composers! Really!

#1377370 - 02/18/10 01:59 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: RealPlayer]  
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Originally Posted by RealPlayer
Originally Posted by Nikolas
BTW, can we put down numbers on how many Greek composers are famous? In all 10 millions of people, the percentage is far from even decent. It's awful.


Well, Xenakis makes up for the low numbers. thumb


I think he said "famous." laugh

#1377372 - 02/18/10 02:02 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: beet31425]  
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Here is another way of framing the question:

Why are there many famous female authors, from Jane Austen to Virginia Woolf, but almost no famous female composers?
-Jason


And here's a slightly off-topic take on this question. So many of the greatest female characters in novels are women, but the authors are men :

Flaubert : Madame Bovary
Tolstoy : Anna Karenina
Richardson : Pamela
Alexandre Dumas : La Dame aux Camelias
Daniel Defoe : Moll Flanders
Nathaniel Hawthorne : The Scarlet Letter
Henry James : Daisy Miller

While no one denies the place in literature of such heroines as Elizabeth Barrett, (Jane Austen) and Jane Eyre, (Charlotte Bronte), are there any great literary male heroes created by women authors? Is Heathcliffe (Wuthering Heights) a viable candidate. Which others?

Why, in literary history, have men writen so successfully about women, but women seem not to have been as successful in writing about men?

Has this changed in more modern times?

Regards,


BruceD
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#1377379 - 02/18/10 02:20 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Lion

What about modern day female composers? The vast majority of film/contemporary composers that I know are men.

Is film composing the only composing that's being done these days? Jennifer Higdon and Joan Tower (both Pulitzer Prize winning composers) might disagree.

Does anyone else find it disturbing that Piano World has seen two threads recently that have focused on prejudicial notions of superiority based on sex or race?

#1377405 - 02/18/10 03:13 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by beet31425
Here is another way of framing the question:

Why are there many famous female authors, from Jane Austen to Virginia Woolf, but almost no famous female composers?
-Jason


And here's a slightly off-topic take on this question. So many of the greatest female characters in novels are women, but the authors are men :

Flaubert : Madame Bovary
Tolstoy : Anna Karenina
Richardson : Pamela
Alexandre Dumas : La Dame aux Camelias
Daniel Defoe : Moll Flanders
Nathaniel Hawthorne : The Scarlet Letter
Henry James : Daisy Miller

While no one denies the place in literature of such heroines as Elizabeth Barrett, (Jane Austen) and Jane Eyre, (Charlotte Bronte), are there any great literary male heroes created by women authors? Is Heathcliffe (Wuthering Heights) a viable candidate. Which others?

Why, in literary history, have men writen so successfully about women, but women seem not to have been as successful in writing about men?

Has this changed in more modern times?

Regards,


Two words: Harry Potter. smile
I think that Mr. Darcy and Mr. Rochester were very successful characters also. In what way were they not?

#1377447 - 02/18/10 04:19 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Quote
there have been numerous studies showing that there are twice as many men falling on the 'extremes' as women. Here's an example of one study conducted by numerous doctors at top universities


If you also read the scientific studies on IQ tests you'll find plenty of evidence to show that these are flawed and do not accurately represent intelligence, genius or otherwise.

Most intelligence tests and studies were written and designed by men - originally to test men. Bias and skewed results abound!

#1377450 - 02/18/10 04:29 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Frozenicicles]  
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These are dangerous waters, and I consider myself a feminist, but I don't I like the politically correct tenor of the discussion. There does actually seem to be a scarcity of women composers, even if you factor in all the societal stuff. The operative word is "seem" as obviously I can't prove it.

But would it be so horrible if it turned out there was something in the male brain that makes it more likely they'll be better at composing music? I can't cite them, but I do believe reading that there are studies indicating men are better at mechanical thinking, including spacial relations than women. I'm also almost certain there are studies that support the idea there are differences in the way men and women process language.

My point is, there are difference between the male and female brain. This isn't bad, or sexist in and of itself. it simply is.

So go ahead all you p.c.'ers. Savage me if you must. I can take it :>)

#1377452 - 02/18/10 04:32 PM Re: Why We Dont Have Famous Female Composer In History ? [Re: Mr_Lion]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Lion
What about modern day female composers? The vast majority of film/contemporary composers that I know are men.


A majority perhaps, but there certainly are women deservedly at the top of the field:

Rachel Portman (film)
Jennifer Higdon, Chen Yi (concert music)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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