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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Barb860] #1374471
02/15/10 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Barb860

Example: student is playing through a piece and missing things here and there and you are biting your tongue off trying to keep quiet.


Good idea. I would call that "fractional anticipatory frustration response." But I haven't read the literature for several decades. Somebody here is a current psychologist - Monica maybe? and would know the current term.

You see, I think much of teaching is nonverbal reinforcement. And unless you are very good at poker face, I suspect the student is aware subconsciously of your disappointment, and will react to it.

It's not an either-or, you talk or you don't talk, because your posture, facial expression, eye contact, etc. is sending continuous messagess.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: TimR] #1374583
02/15/10 11:26 AM
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This is also a good reminder to be observant of your students. If they want you to talk, they'll probably ask you a question. If they don't, then they'll probably play.

If they don't do anything, it's probably because they're afraid to do either, and you need to figure out how to make them more comfortable.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Kreisler] #1374685
02/15/10 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
This is also a good reminder to be observant of your students. If they want you to talk, they'll probably ask you a question. If they don't, then they'll probably play.

If they don't do anything, it's probably because they're afraid to do either, and you need to figure out how to make them more comfortable.


Good point, but I'd add that very young students aren't that verbal. They don't think or talk in words to the same extent an adult does.

The most common answer out of them is "I don't know," but that may just mean I don't say it.


gotta go practice
Re: talk less and teach more [Re: TimR] #1374695
02/15/10 01:38 PM
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Probably the most important step we need to take is at the end of each piece, and then again at the end of the lesson. The student must summarize the main points for each piece/activity. If the student cannot do this, then the lesson has been ineffective.



B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Minniemay] #1374849
02/15/10 04:47 PM
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Canonie: I just had a student play RightLegLeftLeg! She seemed to enjoy it, but she said, "I feel like a penguin." laugh


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Lollipop] #1374917
02/15/10 06:12 PM
02/15/10 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lollipop
Canonie: I just had a student play RightLegLeftLeg! She seemed to enjoy it, but she said, "I feel like a penguin." laugh

laugh very nice to hear - exciting to hear my game being played in a distant land. One day I must publish some kids music smile So, did it improve her rhythm and ability to read R and L hand on staff?

If you slap the front of the thighs the side to side penguin wobble is reduced, and slapping the front relates more to orientation when you transfer piece back to piano. There is one piece where I always play this game even before starting on it; Sailing in the Sun, piano adventures level 1. Do it fast, and faster, and Even Faster (singing the whole time). Oh and begin with "you be LLeg I'll be RLeg", swap, then progress to 2 legs.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: keyboardklutz] #1374923
02/15/10 06:16 PM
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That was one of the points in the Talent Code, that I've been recommending. Rather than long explanations, short phrases 'Like this, not like this, like this' 'how does that feel' See the difference?' 'you got it!' 'How do you want this to sound? Hear the difference?' And then all the reminders: "Lift with the wrists, like this, good!" "Use your whole arm" Etc. Etc.... Rather than long winded discourses.



Working on:
Chopin: Barcarolle
Schubert: Sonata D959
Rachmaninoff: Daisies
Lutoslawski: Paganini Variations for 2 pianos

Re: talk less and teach more [Re: CarolR] #1374951
02/15/10 06:35 PM
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Carol, that sounds just like me! How nice smile Well it's good to feel good about what we are doing yes?

The trouble with being an expert with all the answers is that you are way less likely to develop the expert-independant-thinking student. They have learnt that teacher always knows the answer and the student doesn't. I like to think of teaching like this: I point the student in the right direction and lay out the steeple chase course for them, they run the course while providing me with a commentary on their experiences and discoveries. I welcome their input and suggestions, e.g. if they make an "improvement" to a piece we write it in and that's the way they play it.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Canonie] #1375476
02/16/10 11:44 AM
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I don't think of myself as being an "expert" but I do have high standards for my teaching and my students have inherited (osmosis of teaching) strong motivation and discipline toward learning from me.

When I see and hear teachers talking about their students struggling with things I thank my lucky stars that somewhere at some point I got past struggling as a piano teacher about knowing how to teach and reach my students.

Once the teacher stops struggling, the piano student does too.

When it comes down to it, in reality, piano teaching produces a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us.

We should "own" this as a thought before assigning "blame" to the students that it is their fault that they can't learn and that the "breakthrough" belongs to the student. It's highly relevant that when the student has a breakthrough it may be us who has also had a breakthrough in communication and teaching.

I'm not trying to start a "war" I am simply relating my personal experience and thoughts about what piano teaching is all about from my perspective.

Expert and experience are similarly rooted words.

Creating and giving good experiences should be the mainstay of our teaching.

Betty Patnude

Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Betty Patnude] #1375481
02/16/10 11:52 AM
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I could not disagree more. I don't want students to think like me, sound like me or behave like me. I want them to be themselves in the very best ways possible. It's not my job to replicate myself. It's to create independent, thoughtful musicians. That's why we explore the ideas of many, not just mine.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Minniemay] #1375677
02/16/10 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Minniemay
I could not disagree more. I don't want students to think like me, sound like me or behave like me. I want them to be themselves in the very best ways possible. It's not my job to replicate myself. It's to create independent, thoughtful musicians. That's why we explore the ideas of many, not just mine.


I agree with Betty that "once the teacher stops struggling, the student does, too".
But I agree with Minniemay on the point above, about students sounding, thinking, and behaving like me as their teacher. This goes against my grain, right or wrong, and no disrespect meant towards Betty and her opinion.
My goal is not to mold students to my way of thinking and playing, but to get them to think for themselves and listen for "their sound" to come out. As soon as the student takes ownership of the piece, it becomes theirs to shape into what they want it to be. Of course we educated them but the end result is always their playing and interpretation.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Minniemay] #1375881
02/16/10 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Betty Patnude
When it comes down to it, in reality, piano teaching produces a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us.

The thinking and sounding like us can be powerful teaching tools. Students can be Very inspired by the way you play a piece, and how much you connect with that composer's music and ideas; teaching by modelling at it's most powerful. But I would want to explicitly look for ways to get student to think like themselves, and teach them that their own ideas and musical solutions are interesting to me, and even more interesting to the student themselves. How can you be an independant musician if you don't enjoy your own musical ideas?

As far as "behaves like us", do you actually mean this? I'm trying to see how this would work but I can only imagine that with a few students it would lead to conflict, stress, "attitude" problems and the student leaving. Well I don't suppose this is too much of a problem because this kind of student can then go to a teacher who has a "behave like yourself" model.

Perhaps you mean it more along the lines of teacher demonstrates disciplined daily practice, then student copies this behaviour because he or she understands the results will be good smile

Originally Posted by Betty Patnude
Creating and giving good experiences should be the mainstay of our teaching.

This quote I like. It suggests more of a coaching than a telling model, and touches on inspiration and motivation - can't have too much of these! smile


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Canonie] #1375969
02/16/10 08:58 PM
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Canonie,

I don't know where you and others come up with the idea that I make the student sound like me - they of course have their own talents and skills going as well as the knowledge they acquire and use.

The road to musicianship is a long trail of knowing and doing.

When I say my students sound like me, I mean in the fact that they paid attention, followed through, make corrections, improved their playing. They play musically and meaningfully.

The final out put is that when they are advancing and independent they play and read as well as I do - not that every sound is like mine, and they are the music they choose to play when they are independently working on the piano represents their choices as well as mine.

I do not create clones, but as I've said before my students meet my high standards of work ethics and plateaus and break throughs are not in their domain nor in mine.

I think it's because we get it right the first time.

Yes, I mean the student behaves like us. If the student is having problems in their lessons I think it is usually attritable to the teacher not having cleanly and clearly prepared lessons plans to teach from. The structure of what is selected for the lesson is a very important part of that.

Having studied some pedagogy for a long time now, I understand what music teaching is all about. You have to teach every concept in music and then you have to make sure that the concepts stay learned and retrieval as the long term picture.

There is a long term picture and every lesson leads to reaching the long term. Today's lesson is part of a continuum. A well planned continuum.

Avoiding problems is skill on the teachers part.

Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Barb860] #1375982
02/16/10 09:15 PM
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My last teacher made no bones about leaning over and circling an error in pencil during my playing. Or if timing was off, he'd beat on the music stand and sing "Bah, bu-pah, bah" or pencil in a 'one and two and' etc.

I recall that once he sat behind the piano for an entire 'lesson' in an easy chair, reading. I was just glad he wasn't inspecting my fingering that day. He really had no business teaching. Frustrated conductor, I heard.

Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Betty Patnude] #1376016
02/16/10 10:05 PM
02/16/10 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Betty Patnude
I don't know where you and others come up with the idea that I make the student sound like me
Probably through reading this:
Originally Posted by Betty Patnude
piano teaching produces a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us.


Du holde Kunst...
Re: talk less and teach more [Re: currawong] #1376188
02/17/10 03:36 AM
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My use of "expert" in my earlier post might have confused things. I meant that it is important that the teacher doesn't act and speak "like an expert" in lessons. This is very relevant to the topic when you think of the poor teacher biting her/his tongue as the list of possible corrections grows longer and longer. Of course a teacher who has effectively mastered talk less and teach more could be regarded as more expert, just displayed in a more subtle way.

Betty I didn't quite understand what you meant which is why I questioned it. Your post above describes creating independant students - yes, that's how it should be! I had misunderstood your words about "a student who thinks like us, sounds like us and behaves like us". Thank you for clarifying. And I'll tell you why I felt the need to respond:-

I have had a bit to do with a few teachers who tell the student exactly what to do, which pieces to play and how to play every bar of every piece so that it is truly beautiful. The sort of student who does well will have other musical outlets; maybe another instrument, school band, orchestra, choir or lots of music at home.

But for those students whose only music learning is with a follow-me-the-expert piano teacher it can sad and frustrating in the longer term, and I believe it's harder for these students to become musicians. So you can see why the choice of words worried me a bit.

I hope I am an Expert too wink but I plan to continue to teach by stealth...


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Canonie] #1376243
02/17/10 06:39 AM
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Perhaps the one thing you can't teach is independence of mind. Most want a follow-me-the-expert experience not, hopefully, that they get it.


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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: keyboardklutz] #1376250
02/17/10 07:15 AM
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yes sadly one can't have that great an influence... actually it's probably a good thing!
In my experience, the majority of my students are independant little people. Maybe I attract this type i.e. their parents come to me after exasperation and failure with a teacher who is just a little further along the "do it my way" spectrum. Actually I'm sure of this, I am remembering that this has been offered as a particular reason for matching children with me. It's not a clear cut one way is better or worse, as I have a family who sends one child to the top competition-winning expert in town, and the stubborn and independant child to me (er, thanks!). Parents will often try to find a good personality/teaching-style match for the child, not just a useful teacher.

Some years ago when I tried out a few teachers for me I was rather apalled at the "just follow what I say and I know you'll get there" teaching styles. I hated not being treated like a .. well like an adult I guess. But I know many reasonable people who were more than happy with the lessons these teachers offered, and recommended them to me. Learning can be uncomfortable, challenging.


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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Re: talk less and teach more [Re: Canonie] #1376506
02/17/10 01:22 PM
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Betty,
Betty,
"students meet my high standards of work ethics and plateaus and break throughs are not in their domain nor in mine."

(I still can't figure out the quote boxes!)

Do you feel like you get it right the first time with each and every student? Do you ever have a student that you feel you haven't clicked with, has a different style than you do, and doesn't progress in the way you would like? Do some of them have an attitude that isn't conducive to learning?

With as long as you have been teaching, I'm wondering if you have fewer of these issues with students than some of us newer teachers have. It's nice to know that there is hope!

It sounds like what you are saying is that if there are Breakthroughs and plateaus, there is something wrong with the teaching. Do you think that if things are taught correctly, there should be a steady curve of improvement.


Working on:
Chopin: Barcarolle
Schubert: Sonata D959
Rachmaninoff: Daisies
Lutoslawski: Paganini Variations for 2 pianos

Re: talk less and teach more [Re: CarolR] #1376574
02/17/10 03:13 PM
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Carol,

Pedagogues say "get it right the first time and avoid a lot of time and effort that would be spent in trying to correct something. I think that slowly and carefully putting things into place (concepts and first efforts) with the student leads to avoiding errors and bad habits. I think our guidance is needed in the first year or even two when a student gets new music. One of the biggest contributors working against us is having students work on their own to build a piece when they don't have already have all the skills in place to be able to play it. A concept can take many applications before it is learned and used by the student - telling it, demonstrating once is not enough.

We are building circuitry and networks in our students brains and what is there is the path being followed by the student in how he approaches the piano and the music. His experiences are either solid or they are shaky - or combinations there of - he is a work in progress.

I really do believe it's the teacher's responsibility to put these things into place. It has little to do with the students talents and positive profile for piano study. Students can acquire skills during lessons and those that plodded in the beginning can with discipline and motivation exceed the long term accomplishments of the ones who started their piano lessons strongly. Some kids are equipped to handle frustration better than others and some kids want to quit at the first sign of difficulty.

I think you captured what I was saying, Carol.

Carol, do you think lesson planning for the individual student might be an important part to keeping things on that steady curve to improvement.

I want to clarify that I had as many fiascos as anyone else before I installed my piano studio policies, found my weaknesses in piano teaching and improved upon my teaching over many, many years. I always looked for missing links and took on big responsibilities to find out where they existed in my teaching. I had the help of lots of workshops, seminars and programs by real people - lots of hours - years of information gathering. Every meeting was an opportunity to learn something even if one thing was found during several hours of discussion, I always considered every minute of my time to have been worth it.

The other breakthrough I think I had in my teaching was when I designed a curriculum and method of my own to meet individual needs. It is a structured and sequenced process but from within the program individual needs can be addressed as they come up with a student. Moving about the documents I have created is easy to do. I believe in having many resources available and today, we have those resources better than ever in history fully available for us to reach out and get the information we need.

The teacher is the dynamo to the student and must be fully functioning in evaluating the students needs. Method books do nothing to help us with that. Pedagogy is the answer to those kinds of questions and help is readily available in that today more than ever too.

I hope I haven't set myself up to be trapped in my own words but I stand behind what I'm saying because from my viewpoint it's what I have to profess. Not that it should be "imitated" - each teacher much find their own "vision" and "philosophies" and "accountability" in music teaching.

Yes, we are often given some big challenges to meet, but I think it's true that if we're made out of the right stuff, we also have big enough "shoulders" upon which to meet those challenges.

If what we are saying and doing isn't working, I believe it's up to us to examine ourselves. There is always hope!

Betty


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