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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1375587
02/16/10 02:38 PM
02/16/10 02:38 PM
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Posts: 34
Canada
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Colleen_500 Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted by kawaian

I think we all have understood that you don't trust this test, so please... let us techie geeks just compare the test results to see what (maybe not completely accurate) technology, sampling length etc. lies behind the different models, and you can discuss the (never heard it but I trust you) great sounding quality of CP-1 and others at another thread. I would of course then join you there, without even mentioning this thread...



Pardon me? I'm not stopping you geeks from comparing test results.

If you can question my motives for trusting the word of respected professional people, it shouldn't bother you if I question the integrity of a test that can have errors, bias, or both.

Just skip my posts if you don't like them. Start another thread if you feel like it.

Last time I looked we all have a say in any topic.

Regards,

Colleen

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Colleen_500] #1375603
02/16/10 02:48 PM
02/16/10 02:48 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Yes I agree, those that have played the CP1 seem universally impressed. I'd love to try one but would probably have to travel a couple of hours in the car to find one.

Like I said, let us know what you think when you try the one the shop is ordering...maybe put something on the other thread specifically about the new Yamaha stage pianos.

The next big deal is going to be a proper comparison between the CP1 and 5...on the face of it the 5 appears to offer better value.

Cheers,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1375648
02/16/10 03:41 PM
02/16/10 03:41 PM
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Posts: 34
Canada
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Colleen_500 Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace



The next big deal is going to be a proper comparison between the CP1 and 5...on the face of it the 5 appears to offer better value.

Cheers,

Steve


Hi Steve,

I will post my impression as soon as possible.

I'm more interested in the CP-1 for it's acoustic piano, and equally as much, the Rhodes emulations.

I play an old Fender Rhodes at church, and it's action is very uneven and the whole instrument itself needs a lot of work, new hammer tips, and perhaps an overhaul of the action.

I don't need organ sounds, as I have a Hammond A-100, so the wooden ungraded action of the CP-1 will be perfect for my style, plus I can adjust the sounds to my liking.

The Rhodes I'm presently playing is too bell-like in the top octaves, and is using the old style tone-bars, so being able to adjust with the CP-1 will be nice; also the DX Electric piano will be very nice for slow pieces.

I think they will probably bring in CP-5's when available.

If the CP-1 doesn't quite meet my conditions, I'm also going to look at the RD-series with the added Supernatural piano card.

I'll be looking forward to your impressions of the CP-1 as well.

Best regards,

Colleen


CP1 Los Angeles area [Re: EssBrace] #1375709
02/16/10 05:04 PM
02/16/10 05:04 PM
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Southern California
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Peakly Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Yes I agree, those that have played the CP1 seem universally impressed.


Does anyone know where a CP1 can be played in the Los Angeles area? I keep thinking there's got to be one available to try around here, but I haven't been able to find one yet.

Mychal

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1375714
02/16/10 05:11 PM
02/16/10 05:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kawaian
finally I've made it to record my KAWAI CA-63 (sound is also identical to KAWAI CA-93).

Thanks very much for the file kawaian!

This DP has nice things going for it. I couldn't see much in the way of stretching, and couldn't hear it at all as it was only on some of the upper notes.

Layer blending is also very well done.

Looping and sample length are about par for the course, and note decay is a bit fast, though there is some quantization noise in the sample that keeps me from hearing everything going on near the noise floor (most likely introduced during the DPBSD recording process, and probably not something the DP itself is doing).

--------------
- Kawai CA63 -
--------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_ca63.mp3
PROS:
- Large dynamic range (~51dB, vel=1:127).
- Looping is fairly well done.
- No audible sample stretching.
- Stretch distances: 1(x72),2,4,2,1,1,2,2,1,1 = 81 groups.
- This is a very smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set.
- There are three semi-visible velocity switches @ vel=46,78,124 (4 layer?).
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Looped, though not too badly done.
- Samples lengths are (C2:C9) 3,3.3,2,1.6,1.7,1.6,1.3,0.6 seconds.
- Note decay rather short (~1/2 Pianoteq).
- One velocity layer switch is fairly audible (timbre change) @ vel=124.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up samples.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
OTHER:
- MP3 levels very good: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -78dB.
- Some "mosquito noise" at noise floor - quantization noise?
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-16


Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1375724
02/16/10 05:18 PM
02/16/10 05:18 PM
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Posts: 3,798
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EssBrace Offline
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That's interesting Dewster as I think I remember that Kawai claims to use 88 note sampling on the CA-63 and CA-93. How clear is the stretching from your analysis?

Best wishes,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Colleen_500] #1375736
02/16/10 05:35 PM
02/16/10 05:35 PM
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Posts: 3,946
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theJourney Offline
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I haven't seen such blatant tag teaming among friends and meaningless statements like those shown on this thread since the old PSS threads on the acoustic forum!

Great stuff. Truly entertaining.

" I don't trust data or my own fingers and ears; I blindly copy the behavior of those I see as authorities because it is easier and safer! "

" I ordered one and so did my student." But (later:) "we are not committed to buy as the store was getting two anyway!"

" Soul can't be analyzed by a computer with its squiggly lines. If the facts don't look good, trash the facts! "



Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1375738
02/16/10 05:36 PM
02/16/10 05:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
That's interesting Dewster as I think I remember that Kawai claims to use 88 note sampling on the CA-63 and CA-93. How clear is the stretching from your analysis?

I wasn't aware of their claim, but here is the spectral view of what I'm calling the 2,4,2 stretch groups on the CA-63:

[Linked Image]
The 2 group on the right might or might not be a real one, but the 2 group on the left and 4 group in the middle look pretty definite. I will say in my defense that it gets very difficult to see or hear these things on the upper end of the keyboard. I could be entirely wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. It isn't audible (to me).

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1375743
02/16/10 05:42 PM
02/16/10 05:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 983
Earth
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace

The next big deal is going to be a proper comparison between the CP1 and 5...on the face of it the 5 appears to offer better value.

Cheers,

Steve


I'd say the CP-5 would be the best deal for stage use if you only want to bring one keyboard....I want strings, organ, brass and clavinet sounds.

Won't see a CP-5 for a bit yet.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1375744
02/16/10 05:42 PM
02/16/10 05:42 PM
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Posts: 3,798
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Well the spectral view certainly shows something quite definite, I agree. On the other hand, if you can't hear it chances are no one else would!

Cheers,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer] #1375747
02/16/10 05:43 PM
02/16/10 05:43 PM
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Posts: 3,798
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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End of March did I read? It does appear to be the sweet spot in the range.

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1375749
02/16/10 05:46 PM
02/16/10 05:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 983
Earth
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted by theJourney


I don't trust data or my own fingers and ears; I blindly copy the behavior of those I see as authorities because it is easier and safer!



Gee, Joe...you and Colleen think the same. wink

How sweet.

You getting a CP-1 too?

Good luck...they're scarce.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer] #1375761
02/16/10 05:56 PM
02/16/10 05:56 PM
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Posts: 3,946
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theJourney Offline
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They are a mass-produced consumer product with less than revolutionary technology made by a huge Japanese conglomerate out of perhaps a hundred dollars of plastic and silicon.

The only scarcity that matters is the scarcity of people willing and able to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for a digital stage piano that is most noteworthy to date for its ho hum trade show demos, team cheers on forums, slick marketing brochures and a massive dim-able product logo on the back. Yee hah!


Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1375765
02/16/10 06:01 PM
02/16/10 06:01 PM
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Posts: 983
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snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
End of March did I read? It does appear to be the sweet spot in the range.

Steve


It's the new un-graded wood keyboard that I'm very interested in, otherwise the CP-50 might be pretty good for gigging and/or home play.

The CP-5 and CP-50 also have the same display but the CP-5 has balanced outs like the CP-1.

End of March appears to be right.

Snazzy





Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1375770
02/16/10 06:05 PM
02/16/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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dewster, yes the CA93/CA63 utilise 88-key sampling (as do all other KAWAI DPs released since the ES6).

I too would be interested to see your spectral analysis of the top notes from a purely modelled source (V-Piano, Pianoteq). Perhaps note stretching would still be visible (as in your CA63 analysis), despite the fact that this is obviously not the case.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Colleen_500] #1375776
02/16/10 06:09 PM
02/16/10 06:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 8
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sdw91 Offline
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I recorded the P-80 again, this time with reverb off:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw...WQ0LTkxOWQtZjE1M2NlZTU2NzM2&hl=en_GB

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1375780
02/16/10 06:09 PM
02/16/10 06:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 983
Earth
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted by theJourney


They are a mass-produced consumer product with less than revolutionary technology made by a huge Japanese conglomerate out of perhaps a hundred dollars of plastic and silicon.

The only scarcity that matters is the scarcity of people willing and able to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for a digital stage piano that is most noteworthy to date for its ho hum trade show demos, team cheers on forums, slick marketing brochures and a massive dim-able product logo on the back. Yee hah!



Sounds right up your alley. Joe.

You could also get the logo put on your big hat. wink

Snazzy





Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: snazzyplayer] #1375788
02/16/10 06:16 PM
02/16/10 06:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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I love this place. wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1375792
02/16/10 06:19 PM
02/16/10 06:19 PM
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Posts: 983
Earth
snazzyplayer Offline
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One big happy dysfunctional family. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi] #1375797
02/16/10 06:21 PM
02/16/10 06:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by madshi
@dewster, maybe you could put a disclaimer on the first post of this thread, explaining the purpose (and the limits!) of these tests?

Like you, I've been disclaimering my ass off throughout this entire thread. I was seriously considering writing a script or something that would automatically insert IMO at the end of every one of my sentences. But implementing Operation Ignore changed all that.

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