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I've been focusing mainly on classical music lately, today I had a day off from work so when I finished practicing the classical pieces I'd been working on, I pulled out the old Real Book. I found I was playing things in my improve that were far more technically difficult that before, but I also seemed to be more creative in coming up with ideas. I'm not sure if it was the time away, or the classical study that made the ideas come more easily. Anyone had similar experience?

I can't believe how much playing a lot of Bach has helped my improvisation. Having to approach things in a different way is always going to help lead to some new skills I think. Whatever music you study will benefit you as a player.

I second beeboss. Bach was the greatest improviser.
As my piano teacher said, Bach would have loved to meet Jarrett, and Jarrett would have loved to meet Bach.
But you have to analyse the harmonic techniques in order for classical to improve your jazz. Bach was so clever, the more I study him the more I am sure he will never stop surprising me.

It is always good idea to analyse harmonically what you are playing, but playing classical music has many more benefits than just that. It can lead to technical benefits, tonal benefits, contrapuntal benefits, improved articulation, improved focus and a greater appreciation of perfection, as well as opening up all kinds of different paths for exploration.
I learnt harmony when I was a child by doing harmonizations of Bach chorales, and that has been of great benefit ever since.

Don't think I agree here!

We had a professional "jazz" instructor come in to teach all the "classical" teachers how to play jazz! Well, it was entertaining to say the least. The classical teachers could "not" get the feel for jazz!

Classical is mathematical! Jazz is by "feel"! And has tritones! And classical avoids tritones! So not sure I agree with the idea that classical helps!

Sorry, just my take!

Some of the greatest Jazz artists began learning strictly classical, but had a bent for Jazz, so they began learning it. Some great Jazz players never played classical music. So there you have it.

Antecdote...My first piano teacher (ten months of lessons before I moved) was a skilled classical pianist with a college degree in performance, but made his living playing jazz. He played Chopin Etudes, Beethoven Sonatas, and Scriabin, etc. like nobody's business, then he could take a jazz standard and turn it upside down in several different styles. Was he an exception? Maybe. He was certainly exceptional!

But, behavior or biology...it is hard to separate them.

We are products of our genetics, training, habits, interests, and as well, other outside influences. I perceive the gray area as much broader than the black and white areas.

Glen

Many of the stars of jazz piano had heavy duty classical backgrounds and could swing. Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Andre Previn, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, the list goes on. Plus the famous late keyboardist Richard Tee who played on many records as a studio musician had 14 years of classical training and recommends to get a good classical background to develop technique, sight reading, touch, etc.

Bill Evans said in an interview once, "he got it from Bach, Bud Powell and Nat King Cole. Bill was an excellent classical sight reader, probably the best ever as far as a jazz pianist.

I didn't get any classical piano until my years at Berklee, because I was self taught up to my first semester. But my teachers assigned Bach Inventions Book 1, WTC Book I and Bartok. Studying all this music made me a better player, no doubt and I still play mainly Bach WTC because I love the music and the technical workout is invaluable with my jazz work.

For jazz I recommend Bach WTC Book 1 Prelude in Cm and Prelude in D Major. Both of those pieces are finger busters if you can play them at the stated tempo. Also try to get some classical/Baroque pianists you like who play those pieces on CD for analysis.

katt

No

I have no opinion to offer on the original question, but if you think classical is mathematical you can't have listened to or played much. And as for avoiding tritones - well, a small amount of music from a relatively narrow time may avoid tritones in certain circumstances, but such a generalisation as yours simply isn't true.

Maybe your conclusion is perfectly valid - but your way of getting there isn't.

LOL That's pretty black and white...

At least you learn Harmony. It's all the same stuff. Obviously nothing rhythmic.

Diane, funny statement My jazz teacher would actually say that Jazz is quite mathematical.

Exactly per jazzwee - the benefit is primarily harmony.
That's why the classical people Diane was talking about couldn't get the "feel". In fact it's very difficult for the average classical person to get the jazz beat which generally emphasises the upbeat rather than the downbeat of classical.

My real break happened after I got an old school classical teacher to correct my technique, so in my case western classical has helped me heaps. Surely you can gain technique alone with exercises and etudes adapted from jazz repertoire. It just doesn't seem to be a major part of jazz teaching as far as I've experienced. For me the greatest benefit from classical is definitely not harmony but rather control over nuances, touch, voice leading and generally better musicianship.

Well, I played classical music and got my Grade 9 RCM! Maybe I didn't go high enough.

So my classical teachers would tell me that Jazz was ridiculous music and has doesn't have rhythm! One even said it was "junk" music! Not true!

Classical training trains you to play what's on the paper, and never to deviate away and never to improvise! Where as jazz encourages the player to play outside the box and improvize!

As I said before, jazz is knowing chords! And classical doesn't teach you to see chords, but to see notes!

Yes, I played a lot of classical, but had to re-train my mind when I took jazz classes to understand chords, chord progressions, in a whole different light!

The theory for classical and jazz are totally different too!

Would think the "key" is to get a very good Jazz instructor!

A good jazz instructor is probably hard to find as they are probably busy playing in venues! And getting paid doing what they love!

Diane, it just sounds like you had very poor classical teachers.

Well my first teacher was President of the RCM Register Piano Teacher's Association!

Don't think I would consider her a poor classical teacher! She also had every letter of the alphabet after her name!

Here's a good riddle: Take 100 classical pianists from some undergraduate program and 100 jazz pianists from the same program and let's see who is working more consistently? The classicists get on my nerves being so full of themselves. I mean, what is the point of playing music as a profession if you can't get a job for anyone to hear you??? I wonder how many pianists are playing classical repetoire on cruise ships and in supper clubs?

If she didn't teach you to see chords in classical music then that's poor teaching in my opinion.

I don't think there were any classicists here being "full of themselves". I didn't see this as a jazz vs. classical discussion. I only popped in to make a couple of comments about what Diane said. You don't need to inflame what wasn't there to start with.
Well, lots of people enjoy playing classical music without any thought of earning money from it. Just like, I suppose, a lot of jazz pianists. I'm sure they don't all see jazz as simply a meal ticket. But, for what it's worth, one of my longest and best-paying jobs was playing classical music in a restaurant.