Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
51 registered members (bennevis, amad23, Arty Movie, Beemer, alfredo capurso, Alex Hutor, 16 invisible), 1,672 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
#1377532 - 02/18/10 06:41 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member
custard apple  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,313
Sydney
This has been a really interesting discussion. At least Ray you started in classical. Even though the transition from classical to jazz is extremely difficult, the transition from a jazz background to classical is EVEN more difficult.

Anyway for me, my favourite artists are those that fuse classical into their jazz. Listen to Keith Jarrett seamlessly blend in Bach into his swing improvisations. Listen to how the melodies in The Yellow Jackets (pianist is Russell Ferrante) can sound almost classical. Listen to how Bill Evans can sound so Debussy-esque.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1377670 - 02/18/10 10:58 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: custard apple]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,589
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ted  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,589
Auckland, New Zealand
I find listening to and playing as wide as possible a spectrum of musical idiom entirely beneficial. At the subconscious level the brain takes it all in and everything feeds everything else, making one a better musician and pianist. No, it probably is not strictly necessary to study classical in order to play in another style and neither is the converse true. However, players who embrace the whole field, as nearly as it is possible to do so in a lifetime, seem to me immeasurably the richer for it.


"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows
#1377738 - 02/19/10 12:40 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by jazzwee


Bingo. Jazz is about experimentation. Voicings is about experimentation. Classical does nothing to teach you about voicings.



Hmm, where did all those voicings that jazz musicians use come from I wonder?
Debussy was using sharp 9 chords a century ago. And generally jazz is harmonically a long way behind classical music. I think you may find that many of the best jazz musicians study classical music rather hard, and opening up ideas about harmony is just one of the great benefits.


As I said, Beeboss, Harmony is one of the benefits of Classical. But voicings is not taught to you in classical. It's an observational thing. Whereas, in Jazz, you specifically spend the time to study voicing options. It's part of the basics. No classical teacher will explain voicings.

A lot of Classical music is triad based and not even heavy on seventh chords. Lots of Octaves, unisons. In jazz, we won't waste a note on a duplication but thicken the harmony with it.

There are lots of complex classical music with dissonance. But that's not what you learn in early classical which is what a new piano student will focus on.

So at the beginning level it is not particularly helpful. I also said that at the level of Brad Mehldau, he's very heavy on studying all the harmony in classical.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1377926 - 02/19/10 07:31 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: jazzwee]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member
beeboss  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
uk south
Originally Posted by jazzwee

As I said, Beeboss, Harmony is one of the benefits of Classical. But voicings is not taught to you in classical. It's an observational thing. Whereas, in Jazz, you specifically spend the time to study voicing options. It's part of the basics. No classical teacher will explain voicings.



Hi Jazzwee,
I fear you must have had very bad classical lessons. When I was learning classical piano as a kid I even studied 'keyboard harmony', which is basically harmonization at sight of simple melodies in a classical style. It was very useful, very voicing driven and in fact was an important part of what got me interested in jazz in the first place.
Probably most classical teachers don't know much about voicings and harmonization at sight (in just the same way that most jazz teachers don't know much about pedaling techniques and tone production) which is a shame, but this is precisely why a variety of approaches is very beneficial.

#1377997 - 02/19/10 10:39 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Hey Beeboss, the only classical I was taught was for technique. My son however has been studying classical longer than I've been studying jazz and aside from knowing basic chords, I don't think he'd know a #9 #5 chord, or even the context of it. In general, it's been driven by specific use of textbooks and 'grade' focused material. And it is certainly consistent with Diane's experience.

So if such a skill was taught before, it may be at very advanced levels that he hasn't gotten to yet or it's just not in these textbooks. But as I mentioned, simple triadic harmony is part of his learning.

BTW -- a lot of my understanding of harmony came from Shoenberg, which is a Classical source. So I know exactly what you mean. So if you educate yourself, Classical knowledge can translate into Jazz. For example the understanding of the overtone series really helps in voicings and helps you think of the balance of the dynamics inside a voicing.

But you know how it is. Most jazz beginners will start at rootless voicings and most classical students will start at reading notation and sight reading. Worlds apart. And unless you're interested, they do stay apart.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1378196 - 02/19/10 02:51 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Diane...  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Western Canada
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by jazzwee

As I said, Beeboss, Harmony is one of the benefits of Classical. But voicings is not taught to you in classical. It's an observational thing. Whereas, in Jazz, you specifically spend the time to study voicing options. It's part of the basics. No classical teacher will explain voicings.


Hi Jazzwee,
I fear you must have had very bad classical lessons. When I was learning classical piano as a kid I even studied 'keyboard harmony', which is basically harmonization at sight of simple melodies in a classical style.

Beeboss,

I think that is a pretty nasty thing to say to someone! Telling someone that they must have had very bad classical lessons is just a way of saying you haven't a clue what else to say!

Classical harmony doesn't get introduced until Grade 9. At which point, this is really late in the ball game to be understanding it at this point.

This jazz instructor who came to give us teachers a day seminar on teaching jazz, all of the teachers there said they would love to play like he does, but didn't have a clue how to get there!

He mentioned that he has a lot of classically trained student come to him for lessons. He pointed out that a lot of them have a lot of knowledge, but that a lot of that knowledge was not directed correctly.

He understands jazz, and that to understand how to play jazz, what they needed was a "jazz" teacher!

Interestingly enough, he also pointed out that his "wife" was a classical piano teacher and that she has no interest in his style whatsoever!

Last edited by Diane...; 02/19/10 02:56 PM.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
[Linked Image]
#1378280 - 02/19/10 04:55 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Diane...]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member
beeboss  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
uk south
Originally Posted by Diane...

I think that is a pretty nasty thing to say to someone! Telling someone that they must have had very bad classical lessons is just a way of saying you haven't a clue what else to say!



I am not being nasty. I am just commenting that what jazzwee said ("No classical teacher will explain voicings.") is completely untrue. Maybe his classical teacher did not but I had plenty of classical teachers who taught me a real lot about voicings and harmony, even improvisation as I mentioned.


Originally Posted by Diane...

Classical harmony doesn't get introduced until Grade 9. At which point, this is really late in the ball game to be understanding it at this point.



Well, I didn't know that classical teachers have to follow a guide as to when to introduce harmony. I guess the teachers I had hadn't read that bit of the instruction manual. As a trained teacher myself I am very surprised that any other teacher would follow a syllabus like that.


Originally Posted by Diane...

This jazz instructor who came to give us teachers a day seminar on teaching jazz, all of the teachers there said they would love to play like he does, but didn't have a clue how to get there!


That doesn't surprise me at all as I have given many jazz workshops to talented classical musicians. There are many aspects to jazz that classical musicians find difficult and some take years to learn. To many the skills that jazz musicians have seem like magic.



Originally Posted by Diane...


He mentioned that he has a lot of classically trained student come to him for lessons. He pointed out that a lot of them have a lot of knowledge, but that a lot of that knowledge was not directed correctly.



Thats absolutely right. Improvising does not really require knowledge, or, rather, it requires a sort of 'how to knowledge' and not a 'knowing about' kind of knowledge. One can only learn improvisation by actually doing it. You can learn every conceivable thing about scales chords and voicings but they will not help a jot unless you actually improvise with them. Its a bit like learning to walk, you can't learn how to do it by reading a book.

#1378311 - 02/19/10 05:43 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Diane...  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Western Canada
Well Beeboss,

I think your piano teacher was an exception to the rule. Congratulations! You win!


http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
[Linked Image]
#1378344 - 02/19/10 06:26 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Diane...]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member
beeboss  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,364
uk south
Originally Posted by Diane...
Well Beeboss,

I think your piano teacher was an exception to the rule. Congratulations! You win!


Are we having a competition?
I was just trying to explain how studying classical music can help jazz pianists. Maybe I shouldn't have bothered.

#1378346 - 02/19/10 06:27 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 473
Claude56 Offline
Full Member
Claude56  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 473
Yes, playing classical music helps improvisation. Actually, as long as you learn anything and learn something new, it will improve your improvisation. The reason is because the MORE repetoire you have, the BETTER you will be at analyzing, understanding, interpreting, playing, improvising, and sight reading music.

Classical is the roots of all pop music, and will always and forever remain above pop. All the jazz chords and voicings, rock sounds, and pop stuff came from classical in one way or another.
Classical has even more voicings and polychords, and is even more diverse than jazz. There are some polychords that are used only in classical, and not present in jazz for example.

If you are serious about improv, I think that is best to improvise in many different styles so you can get a variety of different feelings. The best way to learn improv is to learn how to improvise BOTH jazz and classical, not discriminating either one from your improvisational repetoire. The more music you know, the better.

#1378347 - 02/19/10 06:28 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Diane...]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Diane, in fairness to Beeboss, he is the exact opposite of nasty. And he is extremely helpful to everyone learning jazz. So I value his opinion. He is indeed lucky because his Classical teachers did a more free form structure.

But your experience is just the usual route for most Classical teachers. There's a fixed curriculum and the goal is sight reading Classical pieces (as well as technique in general of course). And it is tied to this "RCM Grading" thing. Long ago, I only associated these grades as being a UK or Canada thing. Now, many teachers here in my area are following this same rigid structure. The goal becomes to get to the next higher grade.





Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1378348 - 02/19/10 06:29 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Claude56]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,935
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Inlanding  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,935
Colorado
Originally Posted by noSkillz
Yes, playing classical music helps improvisation. Actually, as long as you learn anything and learn something new, it will improve your improvisation. The reason is because the MORE repetoire you have, the BETTER you will be at analyzing, understanding, interpreting, playing, improvising, and sight reading music.

Classical is the roots of all pop music, and will always and forever remain above pop. All the jazz chords and voicings, rock sounds, and pop stuff came from classical in one way or another.
Classical has even more voicings and polychords, and is even more diverse than jazz. There are some polychords that are used only in classical, and not present in jazz for example.

If you are serious about improv, I think that is best to improvise in many different styles so you can get a variety of different feelings. The best way to learn improv is to learn how to improvise BOTH jazz and classical, not discriminating either one from your improvisational repetoire. The more music you know, the better.


+1


[Linked Image]
A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member
#1378363 - 02/19/10 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: beeboss]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 163
RayE Offline
Full Member
RayE  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 163
Rochester, NY, USA
Well I started Classical piano lessons at 8 years old, at a local music school (Hochstein School of Music here in Rochester NY), after my piano lesson, we had Music theory, and music appreciation classes. During those music theory classes we covered chord voicings, figured bass, harmony, etc. Then after playing about 6 years I switched to Jazz as my main focus. I've played piano for several big bands, including the local Army Reserve Band that I've been retired from for years. Now after playing piano for about 40 years, I'm finding myself interested again in Classical stylings, and I'm finding the focus on classical technique has definitely help my jazz playing. I do know many classical players who didn't get much in the way of formal theory training, and didn't know much about harmony. I really didn't mean to start a huge debate here, My question was merely for those of you that already play jazz, have any of you gone back to Classical, or started learning classical for the first time, and did it have a positive impact on your jazz playing? I'm not referring here to entry level classical, but things along the difficulty level of the Bach inventions, or the Well Tempered Clavier, or more difficult music by other composers.


Retired Army reserve Bandsman who now plays for the Joy of Music!!
#1378400 - 02/19/10 07:27 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Claude56]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Diane...  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,462
Western Canada
Originally Posted by noSkillz
Classical is the roots of all pop music, and will always and forever remain above pop.


Good grief! If that's the thinking here, I'm done!!!
Going, going, poof, gone!!


http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher
[Linked Image]
#1378690 - 02/20/10 08:31 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Diane...]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,941
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Canonie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,941
Australia
In Australian (AMEB) theory syllabus (the newest one) has students at grade one level writing simple V - I progressions, beginning to transcribe melody, and finding motives and variations in a melody (contemporary or classical). And just to be clear that it really is grade one, students also have to name notes and identify "skips and steps".

Early in grade 2 students learn chord ii and IV, begin to write chords in open or closed voicing, learn about consonance and dissonance and then learn to write every major and minor triad in root position but with varied voicings... then write inversions, figured bass numbers... ok that's enough and i only got half way through grade 2 smile

That's just a little bit of detail but I think it gives an idea of how "classical" theory syllabus has changed - at least in this country. And I'm pretty sure that jazz has been a big influence in these changes. So thank goodness students can get stuck into useful, real theory early on.

Back on topic
At the tertiary music school here it is pretty standard practice for jazz piano students to try and get some lessons with a classical teacher for technique/touch, because classical teachers specialise in teaching it. Classical students were always hopeful and encouraging that their jazz friends would be able to get a classical teacher to help them (difficult because they were so busy teaching the classical pianists). There was no better or worse, the best classical players and the best jazz players were both were considered highly skilled, admired. And there were quite a few bands that had members from both sides of this great divide. A divide that I discover on PW.


[Linked Image]
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
#1378997 - 02/20/10 06:05 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Canonie]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member
etcetra  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
Learning classical music can be helpful, But I think at one point you kind of have to specialize in one or the other because of time constraints. Learning an Oscar Peterson solo can be just as time consuming as learning a chopin ballde, and it may not be realistic to work on both at the same time.

When I started practicing again after my injury, I played a lot of classical music.. I re-learned all the Bach inventions and some of the prelude. But right now, between learning poly-rhythm, odd meter, new voicings, playing/transcribing chick corea solos by ear, I just don't have time to work on classical music. Learning jazz requires a full time effort and I feel like I am spreading myself too thin if I pick up a new classical piece.

Last edited by etcetra; 02/20/10 06:42 PM.
#1379740 - 02/21/10 05:49 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe).

Note: As stated, this is according to things I've recently read, and, in no way represents my thoughts/beliefs/opinions.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1379810 - 02/21/10 07:28 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Originally Posted by stores
According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe).

Note: As stated, this is according to things I've recently read, and, in no way represents my thoughts/beliefs/opinions.


Many jazz composers are dead too smile Maybe we can call ourselves Classical music now... Or do we have to wait a century? wink


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1380247 - 02/22/10 11:35 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: jazzwee]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member
etcetra  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
I guess my question is how far/at one point do you need to specialize on one or the other? People like Kenny Kirkland and Alan Broadbent made a living as classical pianists before they became established in the jazz scene.. but I don't know if they were actually doing recital in the proffessional circuit.

On the other hand you have people like Kenny Werner who flunked his first year at classical conservatory..or George Shearing who switched to jazz in his teens because classical music was too boring for him.. When I saw interviews of Oscar Peterson, he did learn classical music, but apparently he did it mostly by ear, and he didn't have the kind of formal training you get at a conservatory level.

I know that most of these guys can probably play chopin etudes, but I don't know if they will be able to play them well enough to pass a graduate recital. I know for sure that my teachers can't even though they are very accomplished players.. their chops aren't that good/clean enough to play them at an acceptable performance level


#1380389 - 02/22/10 02:52 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 933
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member
daviel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 933
Waxahachie, Texas
""According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe). ""

So much for the dead jazz artists - anybody want all my Bill Evans material? You know reading about music is a lot like dancing about architecture. [insert toungue-in-cheek smiley icon here] The last book I read about jazz was the one on the making of Kind of Blue. I don't know what it is about jazz journalism, but I never can get through those books. I couldn't finish it. I think music journalists/critics are more interested in the culture [classical, jazz, rock, folk, whatever] than the music itself. It's like asking a non-alcoholic about what it's like to be alcoholic...well, that's probably an unfortunate metaphor...anyway I just can't get through that stuff. The other thing is I like the "necessary hours" themselves! Just the act of practicing is a result. I think about it when I practice, I do not know about y'all. Practice without thought is a waste of time. Practice is itself. I like to practice; it helps everything. And what's "concrete results"? - learning the piece, or what? do you ever really learn them? What a maroon...[not the poster who's quote I discussed, just the scholarship he referenced!] yawn


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
#1380872 - 02/23/10 03:55 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 298
Ken. Offline
Full Member
Ken.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 298
I play jazz sax and have been learning piano as a 2nd instrument. When I asked my sax teacher to recommend a piano teacher he recommended a classical teacher, which suprised me, but he thought she would be good for developing time, touch and technique. Now after 2 years I'm thinking about spending more time on jazz.

I agree with jazzwee that classical seems to be heavy on triads. I just got a classical scale book and all the chords and arpeggios are triads, except for dominant and diminished 7ths. The chords in all the pieces I've played and in my warmups are all triads. So for me when switching to jazz that would be one major difference, practising sevenths instead of triads.

Other things I would have to add are commonly occuring jazz progressions like ii-V-I, diminished scale, whole tone scale, developing a library of voicings (one-handed, rootless, two-handed), learning comping, and patterns for getting some facility in improvising.

So even though I have some classical technique, and am a jazz musician, I feel like a beginner when it comes to trying to improvise on piano.

Originally Posted by etcetra
...Learning jazz requires a full time effort and I feel like I am spreading myself too thin if I pick up a new classical piece.

Etcetra, what do you do for practising technique? It's common for jazz musicians to use classical pieces for technique. That's one way to keep some classical in your routine.


Monk - Boo Boo's Birthday
Bach - Two Part Invention No.11
[Linked Image]
#1381877 - 02/24/10 12:44 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Ken.]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member
etcetra  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
Ken,

Nowdays I learn/transcribe people's solos for technique. Basically I listen to a solos over and over again until I can play it along with the record note-by-note, without writing any of it down on paper.

right now I am working on

Chick Corea's solos on Matrix, Light as A feather
Mulgrew Miller's solo on "thinking out loud"

The process of learning these solos is a lot like learning classical pieces.. you isolate passages, work them at a slow tempo until it's comfortable and you move up in tempo. I use amazing slow downer and I guess I am able to play the solos at about 85% of the actual tempo. I also take ideas from what I transcribe and make exercise out of them, learning them in all keys.

What I don't get about the whole 'learning classical for technique" idea is that it makes it sound as if practicing jazz stuff doesn't help with your technique.. I know a sax player who learned the entire Charlie Parker omnibook in all keys at 300bpm.. he got his chops from doing that and spent little or no time on classical pieces. I guess my question is if you are practicing correctly, does it really matter if you are practicing classical or jazz?

After all if I am learning classical music, I'd like to do it for the music, nor for it's technical benefits..

Last edited by etcetra; 02/24/10 12:59 PM.
#1381916 - 02/24/10 01:31 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
knotty Offline
3000 Post Club Member
knotty  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted by etcetra


What I don't get about the whole 'learning classical for technique" idea is that it makes it sound as if practicing jazz stuff doesn't help with your technique.. I know a sax player who learned the entire Charlie Parker omnibook in all keys at 300bpm.. he got his chops from doing that and spent little or no time on classical pieces. I guess my question is if you are practicing correctly, does it really matter if you are practicing classical or jazz?


I bet that guys sounds a lot like Bird now smile

The thing I heard about Bird, is that besides being obsessed with practicing, he was obsessed with listening to all kinds of music. There are stories that he would often stop by a listen to street performers of all genres, sometimes for an extended period of time. He apparently had great love for music, from classical to bluegrass.

I guess that's probably what made him one of the best improviser ever, not just technically, but also in the melodies he was able to compose on the spot.


#1381986 - 02/24/10 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 475
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member
KlinkKlonk  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 475
Originally Posted by etcetra
Ken,

Nowdays I learn/transcribe people's solos for technique. Basically I listen to a solos over and over again until I can play it along with the record note-by-note, without writing any of it down on paper.

right now I am working on

Chick Corea's solos on Matrix, Light as A feather
Mulgrew Miller's solo on "thinking out loud"

The process of learning these solos is a lot like learning classical pieces.. you isolate passages, work them at a slow tempo until it's comfortable and you move up in tempo. I use amazing slow downer and I guess I am able to play the solos at about 85% of the actual tempo. I also take ideas from what I transcribe and make exercise out of them, learning them in all keys.

What I don't get about the whole 'learning classical for technique" idea is that it makes it sound as if practicing jazz stuff doesn't help with your technique.. I know a sax player who learned the entire Charlie Parker omnibook in all keys at 300bpm.. he got his chops from doing that and spent little or no time on classical pieces. I guess my question is if you are practicing correctly, does it really matter if you are practicing classical or jazz?

After all if I am learning classical music, I'd like to do it for the music, nor for it's technical benefits..


Still, you have learned classical at one point, so perhaps there's benefits from it that you don't notice while working on transcriptions but still is helpful to you.

#1382083 - 02/24/10 05:27 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,393
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member
eweiss  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,393
Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by stores
According to recent "scholarship" (read:sarcasm) that I've read, classical music hinders, rather than helps. The required technique gets in the way, because there's too much thought involved. The necessary hours of practice with no concrete results also stand contrarily to the fruition of one's goals. Not only that, classical music, is the product of dead composers (apparently making it passe).

Note: As stated, this is according to things I've recently read, and, in no way represents my thoughts/beliefs/opinions.

By George I think he's got it!


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1382346 - 02/25/10 12:09 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: knotty]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member
etcetra  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
KlinkKlink

Btw I did spend some time working on classical music, and I do agree about its benefits. I actually want to find a classical teacher but at the same time I am not sure if I can commit 2 hrs a day on a classical piece when I have so much to work on classically.

What I like about learning solos by ear is the fact that it really forces you to listen to the solos you are learning. You really have to learn the solo inside out to be able to play them.. so it works your tonal memory, your connection between your ear and your hands..etc. If the goal for every improviser is to be able to play what we hear, then I think this is the best way to be able to do that.

knotty

yea, listening is important esp. nowdays. I don't know any musicians my age that listens to just jazz. I was fortunate enough to have friends who has very different musical backgrounds.. so they got me into listening Parliment Stevie wonder.. house music.. etc. What I like about the younger players is the fact that they aren't afraid to let those thing come out in their playing/composing

btw the guy who learned the omnibook in all key won like a big jazz competition.. so i guess it worked for him smile

Last edited by etcetra; 02/25/10 12:15 AM.
#1382422 - 02/25/10 03:21 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 335
Rob Mullins Offline
Full Member
Rob Mullins  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 335
LA CA
Hi,
I didn't work on classical at all when I was learning to improvise. I listened to famous jazz horn players and learned their solos note for note and put chords in the left hand. Worked for me.


Rob Mullins
www.planetmullins.com
Recording Artist and Jazz Piano Instructor
#1382452 - 02/25/10 05:12 AM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: Rob Mullins]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member
etcetra  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,458
Rob Mullin's

Thanks!! glad to know that I am not the only one working stuff that way. I have friends that studied with Jeff Clayton, and it seems like they all studied jazz that way, just learning solos after solos.. they literally learned albums worth of stuff on their instrument.

btw I saw you play a long time ago when I was still living in LA area..It was great listening to your band, you guys all sounded great!!

#1382939 - 02/25/10 08:07 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: etcetra]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2
volkov Offline
Junior Member
volkov  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2
I think that at the end it's only about the sound you get out of your instrument and the musical atmosphere you create with it. And if you, whatever music you play, need for a particular effect a simple triad or a plain octave I think that you don't have much choice here, don't you? smile The same goes of course for any thicker textures, may it be an extended chord, polychord, random cluster, prepared piano sound, whatever. At the end music tells you what she needs. Sorry for the copy-paste but regarding this interesting discussion I will leave Brad Mehldau speak. Here is his lucid insight (taken from the essay when he talks about Brahms's influence on him):

That duality is what I love about Brahms, so it might pop out in an improvisation or a composition of mine. One of the great aspects of jazz for me is the way you get influenced. First, you’re a fan. You get the goose bumps; you become bewitched by the music. If that process doesn’t take place, then whatever music – be it Brahms, Jelly Roll Morton or klezmer – won’t find its way into your vocabulary for very long, unless you’re on some weird mission to play music you don’t dig. Anything is fodder. With a kind of Pavlovian logic, what comes out of your horn will be your own happy bastardization of what you love the most – whatever music seduced you initially. "Should I study classical music?" is the wrong question for an improviser. If you don’t dig it, it won't do anything for you.

#1383044 - 02/25/10 11:40 PM Re: Jazz Improve, does playing classical help? [Re: currawong]  
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,872
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Plowboy  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,872
SoCal
Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by Diane...
Well my first teacher was President of the RCM Register Piano Teacher's Association!... Don't think I would consider her a poor classical teacher! She also had every letter of the alphabet after her name!
If she didn't teach you to see chords in classical music then that's poor teaching in my opinion.


My teacher constantly emphasizes chords. She started me on some improvisation recently, and the jazz has improved my classical.


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  sharpsandflats 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
VST/External audio interface technical issues
by genuse. 09/24/17 10:22 PM
How can I learn "Never Surrender" by Lionel Yu?
by Piano Master 757. 09/24/17 09:45 PM
removing key cover on Mason Hamlin model 50
by jbclem. 09/24/17 08:10 PM
Women composers I admire
by GillesJ. 09/24/17 08:08 PM
Hailun H-5 Piano opinion
by DesertFox. 09/24/17 07:57 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,013
Posts2,659,946
Members88,886
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0