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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: heidiv] #1370256
02/10/10 02:26 PM
02/10/10 02:26 PM
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Can any of you wise folk give me the dope on the C# minor Mazurka, Op. 30. No. 4? My Brown says it was sketched earlier than 1836. Anybody know how much and when?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

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Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: heidiv] #1370275
02/10/10 02:51 PM
02/10/10 02:51 PM
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Jeff Clef Offline
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It is nice to play an instrument that predates the invention of electricity. Of course, I suppose most wind and stringed instruments do; and some of the percussion family.

The noon news is saying 3.8, which does make a difference since the scale is logarithmic. Still, if you're on top of it, it can buck and rumble pretty good.

Out here, we get used to precautions such as keeping gas in the car, keeping food, water, medications enough for at least four days or a week. Cigs; if you smoke, it's a very bad time to run out. And I noticed that the bars did a very good business--- by candlelight, of course; many with no glass in the windows... but they had customers.

Statistically it's unlikely (and anyway only known in hindsight), but it's possible that one temblor can be a pre-shock for another and possibly greater one. So having some groceries and drinking water on hand can't hurt anything. And some candles, so you can see your sheet music.


Clef

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1370468
02/10/10 06:16 PM
02/10/10 06:16 PM
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Jeff Kallberg Offline
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Can any of you wise folk give me the dope on the C# minor Mazurka, Op. 30. No. 4? My Brown says it was sketched earlier than 1836. Anybody know how much and when?


Dear keyboardklutz,

Brown was, shall we say, "liberally extrapolating" from the only notice we have of such a sketch ever existing (in the preface of Hermann Scholtz's old Peters Leipzig edition). Scholtz doesn't appear to have said anything about the date of the sketch.

All of this is to say that Brown, in this instance (and I'm afraid, rather more generally), is not the most reliable source for the dating of Chopin's music.

Jeff Kallberg

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg] #1370694
02/11/10 01:38 AM
02/11/10 01:38 AM
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Thanks. You don't know what Scholtz said? I feel sure Brown is right. Has anyone come up with a reliable chronology of composition dates?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1370723
02/11/10 03:07 AM
02/11/10 03:07 AM
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Just how unusual is an earthquake in Illinois?? I didn't realize the New Madrid fault went that far. I hope this doesn't presage a big one in the Midwest, which is supposed to happen at some point, right? The last time there was one the area wasn't heavily populated, but it sure is now.

Uh, not to be scary or anything.

We know that global warming means lots of weird weather, and it looks like there's plenty of it. Skiiing down the steps of the Lincoln Memorial qualifies as weird, I think, and I heard that someone did that the other day.

We should have good weather, except for a lot of wind, for the MTNA conference in late March in Albuquerque. The first day is going to be entirely devoted to Chopin. Alan Walker is going to speak. I am wondering if I should cough up a couple of hundred bucks to attend for just that day; I don't know what to expect of it. There are also concerts one can attend for free.

I've just finished posting a lengthy piece summarizing the role of the Chopin voice in the Leslie Flint phenomenon, which follows some more general information about direct-voice mediumship, on my blog. (Mary-Rose and Dr. Jeff, please bear with me, I have good reasons for doing this.) You may also be interested in the entry "New Year's Eve with Fryc." I will have something fun to post on Valentine's Day as well.

If you want to read this material, it may be clearer if you read my very first entry, "Developing Discernment," as well.

(Kathleen, you said quite a while ago that you'd like to read my book when it came out. I'm afraid I'm only managing to put out bits and pieces, but this is essentially the same as the book material.)

Elene

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1371067
02/11/10 03:43 PM
02/11/10 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Thanks. You don't know what Scholtz said? I feel sure Brown is right. Has anyone come up with a reliable chronology of composition dates?


No, I don't have the Scholtz edition on hand. From the description in Niecks, it sounds as if he simply said he consulted this sketch in making his edition.

There's a good chronology of composition dates in the back of Samson's Chopin (in the Master Musician's series).

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life. The opus 24 set appeared in print in April 1836; the opus 30 set as early as November 1837, so it seems likely that he composed the 4 pieces of opus 30 somewhere between those two dates.

Jeff Kallberg

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg] #1371544
02/12/10 06:25 AM
02/12/10 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kallberg

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopin%27s_mazurkas (pardon my cheap scholarship) nearly a third were published posthumously, plenty in the 30's. There's no reason not to suggest he started 5 during op. 24 or 17, only finishing 4 or holding back one - it is rather unusual in length. I suppose it all rests on Brown's reputation, which isn't so good?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1371702
02/12/10 11:32 AM
02/12/10 11:32 AM
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Elene Offline
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I'm glad to hear that Samson's chronology is good, because I think it's the only one I've got. I was feeling kind of out of it for not being familiar with Brown.

Elene

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1371798
02/12/10 01:18 PM
02/12/10 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Originally Posted by Jeff Kallberg

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopin%27s_mazurkas (pardon my cheap scholarship) nearly a third were published posthumously, plenty in the 30's. There's no reason not to suggest he started 5 during op. 24 or 17, only finishing 4 or holding back one - it is rather unusual in length. I suppose it all rests on Brown's reputation, which isn't so good?


The distinction here would be between the mazurkas he wrote and wanted to publish - these typically came into print fairly soon after he wrote them - and those mazurkas that, for whatever reason, he decided not to publish - these were found after his death, and published at various times then. So there would be reason not to suggest that he started 5 during op. 24: there's no evidence that he ever did so.

That said, there's a fair bit of guess-work involved here, and if there are things about 30/4 that strike you as being typical of mazurkas dating before 1836, then you might be able to make a good case for an earlier date.

Jeff Kallberg

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg] #1371830
02/12/10 01:59 PM
02/12/10 01:59 PM
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Looks like I'm doomed to roam the earth in search of this Scholtz edition!

edit: British Library seem to have a 1948 edition maybe that'll have his preface.

Last edited by keyboardklutz; 02/12/10 02:03 PM.

snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1372546
02/13/10 11:05 AM
02/13/10 11:05 AM
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Found a Scholtz edition - no preface! Still, I picked up a Chopin at the Boundaries!


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1372896
02/13/10 06:53 PM
02/13/10 06:53 PM
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Helsinki, Finland
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Thank you for the congrats! I took a look for the suggested pieces. Nocturne 72 and Waltz in A minor sounded very lovely, so I think I'll pick one of those two. I'm also considering Beethovens Moonlight Sonata first mvmt.

As for the mazurkas, I somehow just don't find myself that fond of them. I guess I have a thing for Chopins Nocturnes. smile However, I think i'm choosing that waltz in A minor because it really would improve my left hand playing...

Anyways whatever piece I start practising, I'll report here for my improvement and feelings towards the learning. Thanks!

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Curious2] #1372976
02/13/10 08:25 PM
02/13/10 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Curious223
.....As for the mazurkas, I somehow just don't find myself that fond of them.....

Boo ha

Are you judging from just reading through them, or have you actually heard some good performances? (Big difference -- no offense to your playing or anything like that; I'd feel this to be the case for anybody.)

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1373298
02/14/10 05:09 AM
02/14/10 05:09 AM
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Keyboardklutz, congratulations on the book-shopping success.

Happy Valentine's Day, all. I've done one more blog post related to Chopin, which concerns a very odd sort of valentine that came to me a year ago. It's my only physical evidence of his current activities. If you have a look at this, you'll find Mary-Rose's striking version of the 1849 photograph, which she hasn't gotten around to posting here (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning).

Elene

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene] #1373310
02/14/10 06:09 AM
02/14/10 06:09 AM
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Land of the never-ending music
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WOW, that is really an interesting story! 2hearts



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: ChopinAddict] #1373487
02/14/10 11:52 AM
02/14/10 11:52 AM
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Jeff Clef Offline
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"“science” sounds like “sigh-AHNCE,” with a French nasal in the second syllable. But Chopin should sound Polish, shouldn’t he? (I mean, if I’d been trying to fake a Chopin voice, I would have tried to make him sound Polish, period.)"

To a Parisian ear, Chopin's French might sound (probably did sound)Polish-accented. In real life, Chopin didn't speak English; when he visited London, he only spoke to his buddies who spoke Polish or French.


Clef

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Clef] #1373501
02/14/10 12:03 PM
02/14/10 12:03 PM
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JeffCleff, Chopin didn't just mix with his 'buddies' when in the UK. He had numerous pupils, some of whom probably couldn't speak French let alone Polish. He socialised with the nobility and I am sure was polite enough not to expect them to use his language, even if they could. Maybe when he spoke to Prince Albert they used German.... and in Scotland he also would've had to converse in English with his hosts. It is likely their own Scots accents were not too strong, as was and is usual with upper class Scots, who have a slight burr but do not speak 'broad' Scots.

I expect his valet, a refined Irishman, would've helped where he could. But it seems to me mistaken to suppose Chopin didn't cope with the various languages he came across during his lifetime with at least reasonable skill - he was an extremely bright man, and his shortcomings we hear about mainly just from himself.

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mary-Rose] #1373508
02/14/10 12:11 PM
02/14/10 12:11 PM
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Ah yes, but he did get the compliment he 'played leik water'! Funny, a student of mine recently got the same comment.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1373545
02/14/10 12:48 PM
02/14/10 12:48 PM
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You are so right, MaryRose. In the book Chopin's Letters , he is almost always putting himself down. I wonder if he liked himself? Do we have any factual knowledge of this?

I believe (as do so many others) that the truest indication of his character was how he reacted during and after the break-up with Sand. And, of course, the same is true for her. The real Sand came to the forefront durng this same period.

There is a line from the movie The Wizard of Oz that has stayed with me for many decades and I believe it applies so beautifully here.

"It is not how many we love, but how many love us." I know this is a paraphrase, but you get the idea.

Happy heartto all,

Kathleen

Last edited by loveschopintoomuch; 02/14/10 12:55 PM.

After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C] #1373573
02/14/10 01:29 PM
02/14/10 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Curious223
.....As for the mazurkas, I somehow just don't find myself that fond of them.....

Boo ha

Are you judging from just reading through them, or have you actually heard some good performances? (Big difference -- no offense to your playing or anything like that; I'd feel this to be the case for anybody.)


'loveschopintoomuch' posted a youtube video of Horowitz playing one mazurka. I also have a bunch of Chopin's mazurkas played by Rubinstein on my computer.

I really like Nocturnes much more. I'm still giving a shot for that A-minor Waltz, since it would improve my left hand playing. smile

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