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Thanks R0B!

The noise floor is MUCH better! Kind of ironic that the very USB connection you are supposed to use to record it introduces so much noise that you can't record it. MIDI connections, when done correctly, are opto-isolated at both receiving ends, which eliminates digital noise and ground loops. Back when real engineers designed interfaces and protocols.

I had to boost the left channel by 6dB to make it roughly the same as the right, not sure what's going on there but with the noise floor so low now it isn't a big deal.

I hear something very faint during the key-up of a loudly vibrating string. It sounds like a damper coming into contact with the string and damping it, rather than a "knock" like sample. It is very pleasant.

I don't hear pedal down or sympathetic resonance though. I'm wondering turning these things up for manual playing is indeed turning them up for MIDI playing? KAWAI James, could you weigh in on this perhaps?

The piano voice is very much on par with what Yamaha does in the P155 and is technically quite good for this price range. What do you think of the other voices, particularly church organ, strings, and harpsichords? And what do you think of the key action?

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- Kawai MP5 -
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FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_mp5.mp3
- Edirol UR-80 for audio & MIDI interface.
PROS:
- Nice long note decay.
- Looping isn't too obnoxious.
- Large dynamic range (~42dB, vel=1:127).
- This is a very smoothly blended multi-velocity layer sample set (unknown layer count).
- Key-up & pedal up effect w/ vibrating strings subtle yet realistic & pleasant.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Looped, but pretty well done.
- Samples are 3 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Obviously stretched, group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 5,3(x8),2,4,3(x17),2 = 29 groups.
- One velocity layer switch is fairly audible (timbre change) @ vel=104.
- No obvious pedal down samples.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file very good, had to boost L by 6dB to match R.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-10

It is also much smoother looking than the 120bpm sample.


Perhaps I'm being overly influenced by the amplitude view while listening, but the odd looking notes in the 120bpm sample sound a bit different to me than the other notes, but not like group timbre changes in a layered sampler (hence my updated review).

It would be interesting to repeat the 120bpm recording, with a short delay inserted in between each note (as I said before), to ensure that the notes have completely died away before the next note is played.

Greg.

That one I can answer. When playing MIDI-Files the MP-5 (as many other KAWAI keyboards / DPs) doesn't record any sympathetic resonance / damper resonance effects, theses effects are only active during live play! I have no clue why KAWAI did this, but it's a a fact.

I was anxious about this with my newly purchased CA-63 and tried it on this new model, and am happy to report that at least this issue is now resolved: CA-63 does play all effects also when playing MIDI-Files.

That said, I will send you an MP3-File from my KAWAI CA-63 as soon as I have some time to record it, but this may take some days. Thanks for your great work!

Get outta town! Wow...


I'm looking forward to it, thanks!

What other DP's behave this way? Thanks.

Thanks again, Dewster, for commenting on the MP-5

Your guess about resonance effects not being transmitted, turned out to be spot on!
Thanks to kawaian for the confirmation :-)

I don't do much midi editing, these days, so didn't realise the usb connection was so inferior to standard midi.
It's good to have had the opportunity to find that out.

As for the left channel level being lower, that was possibly due to the fact that this time, I didn't record the DP direct in to the Edirol, as I had it going first through a mixer, that I use for Skype.

(The pan setting on the mixer, was centred, but maybe the calibration is slightly out)

Re the other voices, I quite like the organs and EP sounds. Not mad on the strings, and not expert enough to evaluate the harpsichords, but I am guessing they are not great.
(I could knock up a quick demo for you, if you like.)

I mainly bought it for the piano sound, as I have better vst instruments for other sounds.

Key action is on the light side, tactile and responsive.
Suits my arthritic fingers well.

Rob

I've been playing digital pianos since the 1980's. They've only been getting better and better during that time. The first ones were... well, not that good. I'm coming from the angle of just playing them live, as opposed to the midi file thing you guys have going, though there's nothing wrong with that. I'd just rather actually sit down and play one, rather than analyse it with a midi file. I went to the NAMM show and while there I played both the new Yamaha CP-1 and the Roland V-piano. Both very nice, but the Roland is the one that knocked me out. You guys have got to play one of those, with really nice headphones on. It's pretty unnerving how increadible it sounds and how it feels! These are the high end ones; about $5,000, but compared to a new C7, (not to mention a CFIII, or Bosendorfer, or the like), that's like pocket change. (BTW: I also played the Yamaha CFIII. Mmmm!!) And played a "Robert Weber" that had a VERY nice, sweet high register. But I'm digressing into acoustic realms.

In Japanese, but some info can be gleaned . . .

From what I can glean from Roland's website, (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=87) it appears that, yes, the RD piano sounds are sampled. I'm sure they are trying to get them more "seamless" all the time. I would also assume that the RD-700GX plug-in would be "as good" as the RD-700GX digital piano, DEPENDING on the quality/resolution of the playback engine (software in your computer, another Roland keyboard, or module?)

In contrast to the RD-700GX piano, which I have played (it's pretty good), the V-piano is NOT sampled but is synthesized, which means no looping, and it's increadibly clean and responsive. Roland has been working hard on this for years, and the results are stunning. (no, they don't pay me).
Try to find and play a Roland V-piano if you can.

Wow, thanks Lawrence!

They're actually talking about velocity layers and looping (the dark underbelly of the DP world)!

And it looks like they're using something very similar to the DPBSD file to demonstrate them. I look at the spectral domain to see looping, not the amplitude domain or a dynamic phase display like they are doing in the video.

No mention of stretching though.

Everyone is able to blend velocity these days - it's not that big of a deal and the least of my worries, though blending is nice. Looping is the killer, with stretching second, velocity stepping third (provided there are enough layers and the transitions aren't too abrupt).

Blending is actually a problem, as the velocity layers become blurred and less easy to see, and so things get all subjective again and we have to rely on the manufacturer to tell us how many layers they used in the blend.

Yes, it's quite amazing. Lawrence has one, and it just recently ran the DPBSD gauntlet. Many hate the midrange though, even with the latest SW load.

Well, hate is a strong word!

The only comments I've seen are from Lawrence and Snazzy. They have both offered their opinion enough times for it to have made an impact on the forum but I haven't seen MANY people say they HATE the midrange...a couple of people have just said the same thing a few times!

I do understand that Lawrence has struggled to get on with it in the context of his particular requirements.

The V-Piano is not the perfect instrument...but then for each of us the perfect instrument doesn't exist...we would all find at least one or two things about any piano we are less keen on.

For my tastes the midrange is a bit less convincing on the V-Piano but the update is an improvement (and any perceived deficiency is an issue of taste rather than it failing to meet an absolute standard). The bass on it is to my ears phenomenal...I personally couldn't improve the bass or high treble and for overall playability (touch, response, subtlety, tonal change according to velocity etc etc), it is second to none.

Despite my above comments and the V-Piano's good showing in Dewster's tests if I had my time again, I wouldn't buy one actually and there are a number of reasons for this. But as a technological Tour-de-Force for Roland I think it is a towering achievement and shows us the future of DPs. In my opinion the future is modelled, not sampled and not hybrids...hybrids maybe for a short while but modelling is where the DP will reach the pinnacle of development in years to come.

Compare the Roland approach with Yamaha who by all accounts (at least by the standards of Dewster's revealing testing), have made almost zero progress between the P120 and P155. Yamaha actually specifically state in their brochures that they use extra-long samples...a second or two appears to be the reality!

Steve

Yes, hate is probably too strong of a word and/or blanket statement, sorry.

I should have said some picky people seem to be unhappy with them, dumping them, or otherwise staying away from them for various reasons.


See what I mean?!


Oh, I quite agree with you. It sounds amazing in the DPBSD MP3, and if I could get that sound for ~$2.5k or less I'd be all over it.

More power to Roland with this incredible technology, we'll all probably end up with something like it sooner or later.


Extra-long samples! For what year?

To be fair, this is one DP in series, and maybe I shouldn't have expected any significant changes? I don't know, but I did expect a substantial sample length increase. Either that or a substantial price drop. I guess it's 90% marketing at this point...

Also, we haven't analyzed the very latest stuff from Yamaha yet.

Steve: I started out (digitally) with the MKB-1000 and an MKS-20, which, together equal your RD-1000, pretty much. I still love the response and dynamics of the Rhodes sounds on that MKS-20 (same as your RD). SO PUNCHY! And of course, the piano sounds are all over recordings, however unrealistic they sound - they've become a "sound" unto themselves, like the early Roland drum machines, which sounded terrible compared to what they were trying to emulate, but also became sought after for their OWN sound.

If you get tired of your V-piano, you can give to me : )

Dave (in So. California, where it's actually been RAINING!)
____________________________________________________________
Roland MKB-1000, 88 key controller, MKS-20, Roland JV-1010 module, Yamaha DX-7 (yep, the oldie), Korg SG Pro X 88 key DP/controller, Yamaha upright. (Longing for Motif XS8 and Korg CX3 organ with Motion sound rotary speaker.)

Dave,

I totally agree with you...The RD-1000/MKS-20 sound emulates a piano very well in terms of expressive power but doesn't sound like a piano...it is far enough away from the real thing to represent something in its own right. And the two electric pianos are to die for. I actually think they (the RD and MKS) are the last instruments to have their own identity and will rank alongside the Rhodes, Wurlitzer and Yamaha Electric grands one day. I will be buried with my RD-1000, it is my most treasured possession.

I don't consider myself to be a musician, I think I'm a geek on the hunt for the holy grail...the piano sound that tugs at my heart strings...the perfect piano. I've come to the conclusion it aint out there and never will be! As far as the V-Piano goes there seems to be two reactions. Musicians seem to love the V-Piano...they don't analyze it or test it, they just make a connection with it in the way it responds to the player's inputs and in this respect it simply is the best keyboard on the market at the moment. I think a lot of musicians don't go beyond that, they don't over-think it. Piano geeks do seem to find something to criticise and I include myself here. I have listened in such depth and tweaked every last parameter trying to find "it"...It can't do what I want it to and I can't even satisfactorily put into words what that is!

So my torture continues but the V-Piano is something special, no doubt, just probably not for me in the long term.

If I win the next lottery here in Europe (jackpot £113 million), the V-Piano's yours!

Cheers,

Steve

CP1 through the DPBS Detector is what we want!

I note the correspondence on the Yamaha Stage Piano thread...fingers crossed it might be soon with the CP1.

Steve

And the RD-700GX1

dewster, to clarify, are you saying that it's possible to hear interference from the MIDI connectors (or USB, or RS-232 etc.) in the recording?

Could this perhaps be improved by using higher quality/shielded audio cables?

Cheers,
James
x

The "to host" connector on the P120 is a direct electrical connection between your PC and the DP. You connect it to a serial port on your PC using a special barrel connector at the DP end and a PC driver from Yamaha. Since it uses RS232 the signal swings below ground, which I believe to be the main problem with digital buzzing and hash ending up in the audio, though I haven't done extensive tests.

One thing that I did try was to use one of those line level stereo isolation transformers they make for car audio ground problems. (I used that on the line-level audio from DP to PC, obviously.) That helped some, but didn't completely get rid of the digital hash.

When you use the to-host connection, as well as line-out to your PC to record, you wind up with multiple ground connections, which can be a problem with ground loops and hum and such. Higher quality cables wouldn't help with that.

MIDI is opto-isolated and so avoids both bad scenarios. The P120 records fine when driven via MIDI - too bad it isn't a recording quality DP!