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ah...

Missed this thread for a long time! Darnit for being in the adults beginner forum, where I'm not too frequent...

1. I took piano lesson and started taking composition lessons at the age of 20 or so. I was composing since the age of 7 or something. Something clicked in me in those piano lessons... Not everyone is the same.

2. Who on earth told anyone that a performer is not being creative? Performance can be as creative as composing (or creating anything for that matter)! A 'true' performance is not typing, and copying, but interprating the score, offering your own insight and personality. If this wasn't true then why are there thousands of different performances of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart and whoever else?

3. The only case I know that likes unique performances, and everything else become 'a cover' or something is pop(ular) music where everything is based on recordings, a canned version of music (and a rotten one from a philosophical point of view, because I LOVE POP music, even Lady Gaga, and Radiohead and NIN and eels and whoever else (Furtano springs in mind! Yes, even her :D).

4. Now, just a small detail: I find that THE most useful class an aspiring composer can get is... analysis! Yup. It is through the works of others that one is taught differnet techniques, ideas, forms and aesthetic positioning.

eweiss: I think you would be happy locked in a room, by yourself, playing whatever you wish. I mean no harm, no disrespect or anything with this. I just mean that you don't seem to wish to communicate through music, anything apart from what you feel, you want, you wish and you listen. All good, all fine. But I prefer to take a hint on a communication thread between me and the/my audience/listener and take it from there. In an interactive way, rather than sticking in my own enjoyement... And as a matter of fact, I'd say that my (theoritical) approach seems closer to jazz, rather than yours, although I know next to nothing about the general idea of jazz! wink

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Originally Posted by jazzyprof


I find your whole attitude towards classical music, and those of us who choose to play it, terribly offensive and horribly ignorant. You are fond of posting snide, demeaning comments about our craft while holding up the pointless noodlings you proffer as the epitome of creativity.



Well said Jazzyprof.

Being creative is fine. I don't have a problem with it - truly. But what is coming across is huge disrespect for classical music.

How would it be if everyone stopped playing the music of dead composers. We have good recordings of Bach, after all. What if we lost the tradition of knowing how to play Bach? Would that make the world a better place, because we would all be 'free'?

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What about the work of living composers?!! I think that's out-of-bounds for expressing yourself too.

I'm still waiting for some thoughts on what makes actors creative (if in fact they are) since they are reproducing someone else's work.....

The hypothesis that creativity is precluded from any performative act that does not originate solely in the performer discounts all the performing arts, basically, except for self-realisation classes, which constitute psychology not art or skill.


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Originally Posted by eweiss
The less you know, the more you can stay in touch with what you're feeling. Work easy!


After reading this, I really am disappointed. Guess I won't be going back to his site after all. After reading this, I see that further discourse in this thread is not worth my time. The value in this thread for me was that it revealed some important things one would want to know before signing up with a teacher.

Tony





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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by eweiss
The less you know, the more you can stay in touch with what you're feeling. Work easy!


After reading this, I really am disappointed. Guess I won't be going back to his site after all.
Neither will I. Vote with your mice, I say!

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I think some previous posts have supported the side of common sense in this discussion very well, particularly Jazzyprof. I can’t resist adding some thoughts because I have felt angry at times reading this thread.

I can sit at the piano and amuse myself by making up the music as I play, but I’m sure that what I do would not interest anyone else. It is not that interesting, and not very original. I think that people who play this way are generally inward looking and I would actually include some jazz musicians here too. They do it for their own enjoyment and it doesn’t do much for other listeners. This is not a criticism and I am not suggesting they should stop doing it. It is just the way it is and I think that is how it is on one side of this discussion.

On the other side are the people who do enjoy playing other peoples music. There is are huge library of beautiful, stunning and glorious music that is a part of our heritage. Millions enjoy this music in a variety of ways and because we have a wonderful system of notation I am potentially able to play this music exactly as it was played by the masters. This is a pleasure and a privilege. I am also able to strive to match the masters technique because I know exactly what they played. I can potentially get closer to my idols than is possible in any other art form. This is not a minus. It is an enormous plus.

How is it possible to put this down or belittled it. It doesn’t make sense.

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Originally Posted by Theowne
It's interesting that you simultaneously don't want people to become skilled performers, nor do you want them to learn about music and become skilled composers, either. Apparently we should all adhere to the same low standards, or else we are uncreative and boring.

Couldn't resist huh? No. You're right. I don't want people to become skilled performers. I want them to enjoy the time they spend at the piano. I want them to experience music first hand and to feel the joy that comes from that.

We already have enough 'skilled performers.'

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Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by Theowne
It's interesting that you simultaneously don't want people to become skilled performers, nor do you want them to learn about music and become skilled composers, either. Apparently we should all adhere to the same low standards, or else we are uncreative and boring.

Couldn't resist huh? No. You're right. I don't want people to become skilled performers. I want them to enjoy the time they spend at the piano. I want them to experience music first hand and to feel the joy that comes from that.

We already have enough 'skilled performers.'


Originally Posted by eweiss
The less you know, the more you can stay in touch with what you're feeling. Work easy!


What???

I was really pulling for you and I played along on my first reply to you which went unnoticed. Any credibility you might have had early on was diminishing at each statement you made, now it is vanished completely with that one.

Sarcasm won't get you very far as an instructor, especially when you are engaged in a dialog with professional instructors and well-experienced players, some that actually "free-play". ...and if you are serious, then I am even more nonplussed.


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Inlanding, all I mean is that you don't have to spend years learning theory to dive in to playing the piano or to create your own unique music.

Some spend years studying and never really experience music in a direct simple way. For someone who has never improvised before, it's important to keep things very simple in the beginning.

You can get as 'sophisticated' as you want. Nothing wrong with that. But what many want is the experience itself without having to spend years before they can actually 'be' at the piano.

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Deleted.

Last edited by BB Player; 02/13/10 12:50 PM. Reason: Name calling deleted.
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Quote
Inlanding, all I mean is that you don't have to spend years learning theory to dive in to playing the piano or to create your own unique music.


This is true to an extent. If you give a crayon to a child, that child will immediately become a true artist, expressing themselves fully and honestly. However, I doubt there will ever be a renound museum full of children's art. The only people who truly appreciate a child's art are their parents.

Quote
But what many want is the experience itself without having to spend years before they can actually 'be' at the piano.


Unfortunately, this is also true. In today's society, it is becoming more acceptable to allow students to fail, to put in less effort, to make the "mimimum standard" a lofty goal. I have no patience for those who support these positions, and I applaud those who actually have standards for themselves and others.

The OP is entitled to their opinion, but to discount hard work, talent, dedication, respect for tradition, history, and intelligence in favor of ignorance and laziness is absolutely ridiculous.


Ignorance is not a point of view.
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Originally Posted by Ragtime Clown

What you started was an attempt to market your product and now it has backfired.

What I started was my point of view on piano playing. Don't agree? Fine. No need to get nasty Ragtime.

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Originally Posted by CraigG
If you give a crayon to a child, that child will immediately become a true artist, expressing themselves fully and honestly. However, I doubt there will ever be a renound museum full of children's art. The only people who truly appreciate a child's art are their parents.

Exactly! And for what it's worth, I think there should be a museum full of children's art. It would be something to see.

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Children do start talking before learning to read and write. smile

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This thread has some really articulate and intelligent posts in it - a good read. (not mine though, I must be one of those 'creative type' posters)

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Originally Posted by eweiss
Couldn't resist huh? No. You're right. I don't want people to become skilled performers. I want them to enjoy the time they spend at the piano. I want them to experience music first hand and to feel the joy that comes from that.

We already have enough 'skilled performers.'

Thank you for finally admitting your true intent. It's not about creativity and its not about teaching composition in any way. You want to give people a quick fix.

The question is why you feel you have to misrepresent yourself in order to promote your product. That is very dishonest. Just be aware that most of us here are not allergic to hard work. Let us study and pursue our goals in peace, whether it is to become skilled in performance or in composition - a challenge we are more than willing to accept.

If we ever become discouraged enough to want to resort to quick fix schemes, then we will do so. But coming in here and telling people that something they gain deepest satisfaction from is pointless, while offering the regurgitation of meandering little tunes that can be created in minutes as the better and "creative" alternative, is a poor marketing technique.

Last edited by Theowne; 02/13/10 01:28 PM.

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That flushing sound you hear is my "Quiescencemusic.com" bookmark going into the trashcan.

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Originally Posted by Theowne
Thank you for finally admitting your true intent.

You're welcome.

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Well, just to chime in here (hi, RC smile ), this is the post I agree with (and others expressed similar views):

Originally Posted by rocket88
But then again, I am not a big fan of the "either/or", "them or us", style of thinking.


Cathy


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Originally Posted by Crit
That flushing sound you hear is my "Quiescencemusic.com" bookmark going into the trashcan.

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