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Alternative to Chopin #1372144
02/12/10 09:39 PM
02/12/10 09:39 PM
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lisztonian Offline OP
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Does anyone know of any pieces by that stress the same technical exercises as the Chopin etudes but are by a different composer? It's kind of bothersome to learn some of these when I've heard them all way way too many times and are too overplayed. Suggestions are welcome.

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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: lisztonian] #1372151
02/12/10 09:44 PM
02/12/10 09:44 PM
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Horowitzian Offline
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Chopin: There IS no alternative. grin

Apologies, I'm feeling rather festive tonight, to borrow argerichfan's term. laugh


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: lisztonian] #1372168
02/12/10 09:52 PM
02/12/10 09:52 PM
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I've known and loved the Chopin etudes for many years -- and never considered them "technical exercises."

You're not the first one here that I've seen talk about them that way, but I just don't see it. The Chopin etudes are pieces that you play if you have those techniques, not to develop or improve them. All IMO of course.....

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Horowitzian] #1372170
02/12/10 09:54 PM
02/12/10 09:54 PM
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Horowitzian basically summed it up.

Godowsky made a bunch of paraphrases on Chopin's etudes, some of which I like a little better (like the Winter Wind).

When it comes to etudes, I recommend some Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy. Also, here are some Alkan's "technical-study" etudes (aka NOT THE CONCERTO OR SYMPHONY OR OVERTURE OR FESTIN D'ESOPE OR ANYTHING ELSE MORE LIKE A STAND-ALONE PIECE) I've handpicked:

Op. 76 No. 3
Op. 27 "Le Chemin de Fer"
Op. 35 Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, and 12.
Op. 39 No. 1

(Op. 35 Nos. 1, 2, and 3 are the easiest, and I think Op. 76 No. 3 and Op. 39 No. 1 are the hardest.)

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Horowitzian] #1372172
02/12/10 09:55 PM
02/12/10 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Chopin: There IS no alternative. grin

Apologies, I'm feeling rather festive tonight, to borrow argerichfan's term. laugh


You hit the nail! Id say so too.


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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Mark_C] #1372175
02/12/10 09:57 PM
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lisztonian Offline OP
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Yeah I guess I understand that. I don't question that they are a bit more than just merely pieces for technical exercises, that is, they do contain some musicality.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Mark_C] #1372176
02/12/10 09:58 PM
02/12/10 09:58 PM
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Mark, I think you can use Chopin's etudes to develop the technique they call for... You'd just have to study them for a long time!

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Orange Soda King] #1372180
02/12/10 09:59 PM
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lisztonian Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Horowitzian basically summed it up.

Godowsky made a bunch of paraphrases on Chopin's etudes, some of which I like a little better (like the Winter Wind).

When it comes to etudes, I recommend some Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy. Also, here are some Alkan's "technical-study" etudes (aka NOT THE CONCERTO OR SYMPHONY OR OVERTURE OR FESTIN D'ESOPE OR ANYTHING ELSE MORE LIKE A STAND-ALONE PIECE) I've handpicked:

Op. 76 No. 3
Op. 27 "Le Chemin de Fer"
Op. 35 Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, and 12.
Op. 39 No. 1

(Op. 35 Nos. 1, 2, and 3 are the easiest, and I think Op. 76 No. 3 and Op. 39 No. 1 are the hardest.)


Good suggestions.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: lisztonian] #1372196
02/12/10 10:18 PM
02/12/10 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lisztonian
Yeah I guess I understand that. I don't question that they are a bit more than just merely pieces for technical exercises, that is, they do contain some musicality.

Yes, but the main thing I meant was how HARD the etudes are. They're not for developing technique, not particularly; they're to play once you have it.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: lisztonian] #1372197
02/12/10 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lisztonian
Does anyone know of any pieces by that stress the same technical exercises as the Chopin etudes but are by a different composer? It's kind of bothersome to learn some of these when I've heard them all way way too many times and are too overplayed. Suggestions are welcome.


Well - yes they are overplayed - but not by you. Every serious classical pianist should tackle at least a couple of these beautiful etudes. If you want something a tad easier and perhaps less familiar try Chopin's three Nouvelle Etudes.


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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Orange Soda King] #1372198
02/12/10 10:20 PM
02/12/10 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Mark, I think you can use Chopin's etudes to develop the technique they call for... You'd just have to study them for a long time!

I don't think so. smile
Or at least I don't think they're anything close to the best way, or even a good way. If you don't basically have the techniques that are required for a particular etude (except for the "easy" ones), either you'll be playing them so slowly that what you're doing will have little to do with the technique, or you'll be playing it very badly, or you'll be wrecking your hand, or all three.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: lisztonian] #1372200
02/12/10 10:21 PM
02/12/10 10:21 PM
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What about the Debussy Etudes? In their own way, they're just as treacherous and musically rewarding as the Chopins.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: jeffreyjones] #1372279
02/12/10 11:29 PM
02/12/10 11:29 PM
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Le Chemen De Fer is almost impossible though


Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: xtraheat] #1372296
02/12/10 11:59 PM
02/12/10 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by xtraheat
Le Chemen De Fer is almost impossible though

Well then let it remain in the ruins of pianistic rubbish.

Let it be known, I am quite the (selective) fan of Alkan, but this piece is just sheer waste. Unlike Liszt, Chopin and Schumann, Alkan can descend into the most embarrassingly inept pits of idiocy.

Frankly I'm tired of it all. Alkan has moments wherein he touches greatness (the Op. 39 Etudes, Sonatine, Grand Sonata, some of the misc. pieces), but there's a damn good reason why he is not in the Pantheon. He's just too bloody inconsistent.

Le Chemen De Fer is a perfect and ideal example of tosh that just isn't worth the trouble to learn. Hah!


Jason
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: argerichfan] #1372303
02/13/10 12:09 AM
02/13/10 12:09 AM
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Not any worse than Op.25 no.3 (musically-wise)


Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Carey] #1372304
02/13/10 12:16 AM
02/13/10 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by carey

Well - yes they are overplayed - but not by you.


Well said!

Lisztonian: Chopin's etudes contain some musicality? SOME?

Well, some of them are more marvelously musically juicy than others. And perhaps they just don't speak to you the way they do to me. But I think you'll find that they are well worth your efforts. Try at least one or two. And the suggestion of the Trois Nouvelles Etudes is a worthwhile idea, especially the F minor. (Mark, I learned to play 3 against 4 from that piece-- it definitely taught me technique that I didn't already have.) If Chopin's are overplayed, it's because pianists have found them to be of such value.

Best wishes for your studies one way or the other. I assume, from your name, you must be playing plenty of Liszt?

Elene

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: xtraheat] #1372317
02/13/10 12:37 AM
02/13/10 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by xtraheat
Not any worse than Op.25 no.3 (musically-wise)


I'm very fond of the Op. 25 No. 3; it's one I studied at one point, although it eventually defeated me. I find Chopin's variations on the simple but engaging theme quite ingenious by varying the harmony and the texture throughout.

Granted, it's not a profound work, but I find it musically interesting and - like all the Etudes - immensely challenging but producing rewarding results.

Regards,


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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Elene] #1372321
02/13/10 12:38 AM
02/13/10 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Elene
.....the suggestion of the Trois Nouvelles Etudes is a worthwhile idea, especially the F minor. (Mark, I learned to play 3 against 4 from that piece-- it definitely taught me technique that I didn't already have.)

Remember, I did say "except for the 'easy' ones." smile

(With "easy" in quotes, because none of them are really easy.)

And I don't think the OP meant etudes like this one, but the "hard" ones, and that's what I meant too. It's true, there are a handful of the etudes that could serve a purpose like what you said. It's a great example. Good that you mentioned it.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Mark_C] #1372342
02/13/10 01:06 AM
02/13/10 01:06 AM
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Chopin himself used Cramer and Moscheles.


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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1372349
02/13/10 01:43 AM
02/13/10 01:43 AM
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Other options would include:
Mendelssohn - Songs without Words
Schumann - Op 15 & 68
Debussy - Preludes or Children's Corner

I am personally enjoying my journey through Chopin Op 25.

M


Oz Marcus
Currently working on:
Schubert Impromptu in C minor - D899
Chopin Prelude Op28 No 15, nocturne Op48 no 1
Bach Prelude & Fuge WTC II No 12 in F minor
Aspiring to Rautavaara - Piano Sonata 2 - Fire Sermon
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: keyboardklutz] #1372386
02/13/10 04:24 AM
02/13/10 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Chopin himself used Cramer and Moscheles.


I think some of Moscheles' op. 70 are thought to be the inspiration for some of his own; it's a good set, regardless. And he also taught Clementi etudes.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Mark_C] #1372388
02/13/10 04:33 AM
02/13/10 04:33 AM
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I agree that you need these skills to be able to play them, but weren't the Etude's designed to master that particular skill? I wouldn't look for an alternative, just keep trying until you can play one. I can only play a few (Op.10 No.12, Op.25 No.2, Op.10 No.3 and 'Trois nouvelles ├ętudes' no 1) - their the 'easier' Etudes. I don't mean there easy to play, but quite a portion easier than the rest of them. Good Luck!


Currently working on...
Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66
Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282
Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Samuel1993] #1372406
02/13/10 06:40 AM
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Well, it's a good thing Alkan denoted Le Chemin de Fer as just another technical study etude and not really a "serious" piece! wink And it's difficult, but easier than Op. 76 No. 3 (which I think is slightly even LESS interesting musically). If you use a good fingering, the left hand in the climax isn't too awfully bad.

Mark C, I see what you are talking about. Of course you need some knowledge of the skill the etude is working, but the etude can help you really perfect it. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Orange Soda King] #1372424
02/13/10 07:45 AM
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I sometimes think Chopin set himself the challenge of composing the etudes as demonstrations of a particular skill, not as a preparatory exercise for it, and that the "study," etude, in each was for Chopin himself in composition and not necessarily for some future pianist in technique.


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: -Frycek] #1372428
02/13/10 07:55 AM
02/13/10 07:55 AM
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I believe Kreisler once said - to paraphrase poorly - that the Chopin etudes were for developing technique, and the Liszt etudes were for displaying technique. Interesting idea, and sorry if I'm not attributing this correctly.

I know someone who performs all 24 as a set, and before learning them, went through all the Cortot preparatory exercises.


Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: -Frycek] #1372459
02/13/10 09:01 AM
02/13/10 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
I sometimes think Chopin set himself the challenge of composing the etudes as demonstrations of a particular skill, not as a preparatory exercise for it, and that the "study," etude, in each was for Chopin himself in composition and not necessarily for some future pianist in technique.


I might be wrong, but it seems to me like they're a bit of both. They all seem to present a specific challenge to the performer, but are also obviously designed to be enjoyed as performance pieces.


Two shadas at noon.
Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: wr] #1372465
02/13/10 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Chopin himself used Cramer and Moscheles.


I think some of Moscheles' op. 70 are thought to be the inspiration for some of his own; it's a good set, regardless. And he also taught Clementi etudes.
Yes. Moscheles' op 70 are still highly regarded.


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Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Samuel1993] #1372566
02/13/10 11:30 AM
02/13/10 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Samuel1993
I agree that you need these skills to be able to play them, but weren't the Etude's designed to master that particular skill?.....

Maybe they were, but I always thought they were more to exhibit the skill than to develop it.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: -Frycek] #1372567
02/13/10 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
I sometimes think Chopin set himself the challenge of composing the etudes as demonstrations of a particular skill, not as a preparatory exercise for it, and that the "study," etude, in each was for Chopin himself in composition and not necessarily for some future pianist in technique.

Exactly what I thought.

Re: Alternative to Chopin [Re: Seabelle] #1372568
02/13/10 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Seabelle
Originally Posted by -Frycek
I sometimes think Chopin set himself the challenge of composing the etudes as demonstrations of a particular skill, not as a preparatory exercise for it, and that the "study," etude, in each was for Chopin himself in composition and not necessarily for some future pianist in technique.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me like they're a bit of both. They all seem to present a specific challenge to the performer, but are also obviously designed to be enjoyed as performance pieces.

I don't think the two of you are disagreeing, just talking about somewhat different things.

I would guess that Frycek will agree with what you said. I certainly agree 100% with all that the two of you said, except that I think the "both" that you referred to aren't the same two things that she talked about, and it seems like you thought they were.

These things are subtle -- and therefore very interesting. smile

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