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Re: The DPBSD Project! - HP603 [Re: dewster] #2529366
04/10/16 10:31 AM
04/10/16 10:31 AM
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lophiomys Online content
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Here is a dpbsd-v2.0 recording on a factory reset Roland HP-603 with SuperNatural Piano Modeling. I hope, I have set up the recording process correctly.

Compared to the sound experience directly in front of the HP603, the WAV recording sounds more raspy (on my Adam A5 monitor with a Tascam US-100 audio interface).

Dropbox: dpbsd-v2.0-Roland-HP-603...wav.7z



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Re: The DPBSD Project! - HP603 [Re: dewster] #2544035
05/28/16 08:06 AM
05/28/16 08:06 AM
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Hello lophiomys,

Your HP 603 recording is no longer available. Could you please reupload it?

Thank and regards!

Re: The DPBSD Project! - HP603 [Re: semiactive] #2544066
05/28/16 10:13 AM
05/28/16 10:13 AM
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Hello Semiactive,
Sorry, I have re-organised my files on Dropbox, not being aware, that it would destroy most of the links in the forums!

Re-uploaded the DPBSD v2.0 mid file of the Roland HP603:
HP603 recording of DPBSD-v2.0.mid

Re: The DPBSD Project! - HP603 [Re: dewster] #2544466
05/29/16 11:33 AM
05/29/16 11:33 AM
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semiactive Offline
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Thank you, Lophiomys.

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Re: The DPBSD Project! - HP603 [Re: dewster] #2546393
06/04/16 09:47 PM
06/04/16 09:47 PM
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If it is OK to put up the results of some freebie SFZ / Kontakt pianos

Piano in 162 from Ivy Audio
Steinway Model B grand piano, five velocity layers, two round robins, pedal on/off
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ti4d820tf6q8qxh/Piano_in_162_close_dpbsd.wav
http://www.mediafire.com/download/090s4h3vy0r01yk/Piano_in_162_ambient_dpbsd.wav

Recut Salamander Piano (tightened to improve response) created by Alexander Holmfeel, Yamaha C5 grand
Every third note sampled, 16 velocity layers
http://www.mediafire.com/download/sshhsfjus93acy4/Salamander_dpbsd.wav

Iowa Piano created by the University of Iowa Electronic Music Studios
Steinway & Sons model B
Three velocity layers, almost every note sampled.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/cfzae8cek7i2tfg/Iowa_dpbsd.wav

Summer Piano from the OLPC project by Dr. Mikhail Krishtal Director of Music Research and Production and his team at Zenph Studios.
Yamaha Disklavier Pro Piano
Every third note sampled, 10 to 15 velocity layers, pedal up/down
http://www.mediafire.com/download/w31km3dbqjpzb8h/Summer_dpbsd.wav

City Piano, Baldwin
Four Velocity layers, every note sampled
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9zc1kwgf76s0gbs/City_Joe_dpbsd.wav (dirty)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/3bul4kacz6yjkfn/City_Vospi_dpbsd.wav (clean)

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Walter Cruz] #2561663
08/07/16 07:56 PM
08/07/16 07:56 PM
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Not sure if we can call this project "active" but I know how to analyze the MP3 files because dewster teach me long ago. But I am only interested on this models:

  • Yamaha P115
  • Korg SP 170S
  • Korg B1
  • Korg SP 280
  • Korg Kross 88
  • Roland FP20
  • Roland FP30
  • M-Audio Accent
  • Alesis Coda
  • Kurzweil KA90
  • Kurzweil MPS10
  • Kurzweil MPS20
  • Kurzweil SP4-8
  • Lowrey EZP3


If you have any of this models, please upload the MP3 or WAVE. I want this because in my project I compare digital pianos and show information that I can only know with this test MIDI file that dewster made.

Send me a personal message if you upload the test file of any of the models mention here.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2563336
08/15/16 03:40 AM
08/15/16 03:40 AM
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Below link for DPBSD 2.0 test of Roland FP-30.
Includes manual resonance testing, noise level -56 dB

FP-30 test files

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: skobus] #2563362
08/15/16 07:53 AM
08/15/16 07:53 AM
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Venezuela
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Thank you very much. I will work with those files as soon as possible and publish my results. I don't go as deep as dewster, but should be enough.

May I ask, what is the manual resonance test?


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Daniel Richter] #2563367
08/15/16 09:57 AM
08/15/16 09:57 AM
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See the dpbsd_readme.txt:
Some DPs (esp. Kawai, Roland) lack pedal and/or key sympathetic resonance when played via MIDI. The following are two manual tests for these features.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2563497
08/15/16 08:44 PM
08/15/16 08:44 PM
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EssBrace Online content
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Over five million views. Amazing. Dewster, we salute you, wherever you are. And please come back...


Roland RD-1000 | Kawai CS11 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #2566076
08/25/16 08:55 PM
08/25/16 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Over five million views. Amazing. Dewster, we salute you, wherever you are. And please come back...


+1.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566079
08/25/16 09:14 PM
08/25/16 09:14 PM
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Salute him? For what?

The entire thread can be condensed into a simple statement:
Digital pianos have poor sound because:
1. The sounds are looped.
2. They lack resonance.
3. They lack sustain.
etc. etc. etc.
The same is true for them all. Perhaps that's why interest has waned?

A similar thread might say:
I found a blade of grass. It is green.
Here's another blade. It, too, is green.
Here's another. Green.
And another. Green.
Need this be continued?

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566092
08/25/16 10:42 PM
08/25/16 10:42 PM
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Actually, there are some newer DP's which have un-looped sounds, reasonable sustain, and reasonable resonance (e.g. the Roland LX-17 and "SuperNatural modelled" cousins). They're not cheap (yet) -- outside Daniel's list of models.

Pianoteq 5 (IMHO) also does pretty well in those departments. It may sound "artificial", but that's a subjective judgement, not a quantitative one.

If Dewster wanted to come out of retirement (that is, spend more time _not_ earning a living<g>), there's some worthwhile testing he could do.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566138
08/26/16 03:47 AM
08/26/16 03:47 AM
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MacMacMac,

Dewster's work is very valuable!
It set things straight against overboarding advertisements, not by hearsay, but by hard facts.

If I would only have found the information in this thread, before I bought my digital, that would have been very helpful.
I do salute Dewster.

Kind Regards,
Lo PHi

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2566139
08/26/16 03:52 AM
08/26/16 03:52 AM
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EssBrace Online content
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Salute him? For what?

The entire thread can be condensed into a simple statement:
Digital pianos have poor sound because:
1. The sounds are looped.
2. They lack resonance.
3. They lack sustain.
etc. etc. etc.
The same is true for them all. Perhaps that's why interest has waned?

A similar thread might say:
I found a blade of grass. It is green.
Here's another blade. It, too, is green.
Here's another. Green.
And another. Green.
Need this be continued?


It's not so much that I disagree with you Mac, but it was always a matter of degree. Each piano has/had its own characteristics. The note stretching for example...Kawai used 88 note sampling (as did Yamaha some years ago).

Likewise, some looping was done better than others. Nord uses loops but each loop is long enough to wobble in its own right before being repeated and that disguises the presence of looping to some extent - far better than the very short, static cycles employed by Yamaha and Kawai for instance, that both sound completely unnatural when decaying (IMO).

I think Dewster presented in graphical form what the listener/player hears and he provided a really interesting basis for comparison. And given that very few of us have played all the pianos featured in the DPBSD I do think the thread was, and remains, a very useful resource. To my mind it doesn't replace subjective testing but it does help to understand what is going on beneath the marketing blurb pedalled by the makers.

And as Charles says, there are pianos that have broken out of the tiny incremental change/improvement regime...Dexibell claim much longer attack samples and the modelled pianos (Roland, Physis) have no loops at all and no velocity layers.

Interest has waned simply because the library of results remains more or less at it was when Dewster left. If he was still testing pianos the thread would have remained current and, I suspect, well subscribed to.

Just my thoughts on the matter...


Roland RD-1000 | Kawai CS11 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Charles Cohen] #2566141
08/26/16 04:39 AM
08/26/16 04:39 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
If Dewster wanted to come out of retirement (that is, spend more time _not_ earning a living<g>), there's some worthwhile testing he could do.


If I remember correctly, dewster was a former telecommunications engineer who had left his company and was working on his own research. Could it be that he found another job, and therefore no longer has time to participate on the forum?

For what it's worth, I personally found the DPBSD project to be very interesting.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566229
08/26/16 12:20 PM
08/26/16 12:20 PM
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My concern with DPBSD is that it's not very useful.

The tests and charts and graphs mean little by themselves. But given an explanation, they all point to the same thing: mediocre sound performance.

That conclusion could more easily be reached by simply putting fingers on the keys.

Yes, there are differences in the sounds of the various pianos. But the ears tell the story much better than the data.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2566282
08/26/16 04:41 PM
08/26/16 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The tests and charts and graphs mean little by themselves. But given an explanation, they all point to the same thing: mediocre sound performance.

That conclusion could more easily be reached by simply putting fingers on the keys.

You miss the point. DPBSD is only concerned with sound generator issues. By putting the fingers on the keys you mash another complication into the picture: The keyboard action. But at least for this project, keyboard action issues are not the focus.

DPBSD works via pure MIDI input and makes sound generators comparable, even if their source pianos offer vastly different keyboard actions - or no keyboard action at all, like expanders or virtual instruments.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566345
08/26/16 08:31 PM
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I don't agree. Rather ... you've diverted around the point.

Which is ... My ears (with fingers engaged) tell me all the same things (and more) that the DPBSD tells me without fingers.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2566395
08/27/16 01:35 AM
08/27/16 01:35 AM
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Your ears might be really good, and give you satisfactory perception. That might not be the case for many others.

The DPBSD project gives you quantitative and comparable measuring results, which are hardly refutable by marketing statements or personal preferences.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2566440
08/27/16 07:19 AM
08/27/16 07:19 AM
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Quite true. But does it matter? Neither performer nor audience listen to test measurements. We have only our ears.

Anyway, the comparison among the test results leads to just one simple conclusion: The sound ranges from poor to mediocre. To get better you just have to buy piano software.

Let me put it as a question: Would you choose a piano based on the DPBSD test results? Or will you try, listen, and choose?

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2566458
08/27/16 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Which is ... My ears (with fingers engaged) tell me all the same things (and more) that the DPBSD tells me without fingers.

That's fine for you. :-)


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2567125
08/29/16 05:03 PM
08/29/16 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Salute him? For what?

The entire thread can be condensed into a simple statement:
Digital pianos have poor sound because:
1. The sounds are looped.
2. They lack resonance.
3. They lack sustain.
etc. etc. etc.
The same is true for them all. Perhaps that's why interest has waned?

A similar thread might say:
I found a blade of grass. It is green.
Here's another blade. It, too, is green.
Here's another. Green.
And another. Green.
Need this be continued?



Couldn't a similar argument be made for the logic behind your simple rejection of the utility of Dewster's results?

1. Dewster's first test reveals poorly looped samples.
2. The result is bad news. We don't like it.
3. Dewster's tests of other pianos also revealed looped samples.
4. These tests were also considered bad news. We don't like those results either.
5. Does this add up to: Because Dewster couldn't find some "good news" in more tests, we know his thread is useless and should be discontinued?


Does the results of any test have to be varied or positive to be useful? What would happen to all scientific or technological progress if we applied such a demand?


I'm with JoeT and Kawai James. This thread was very creative, and if anyone else, such as Daniel R, with the help of others providing samples, continues the tradition, it is appreciated.

Finally, we all want better DPs. Revealing limitations of current technologies, as well seeing more competition/ideas in the DP industry to address those limitations, can provide a useful push. The knowledge provided by Dewster's work provides potential impetus, though small, for both.


Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Scooby Hoo] #2567135
08/29/16 05:31 PM
08/29/16 05:31 PM
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My 2 cents on all this subject:

Trying in person the digital pianos before you buy is ideal, but by great part of the world impossible. Also there is a lot that you can't notes in a simple test playing the piano. Specifications that manufactures gave are very limited, so we need some testing for such details.

Why we care? Because it matters, and I think manufactures should know that. If they see we don't care about things like loops, stretched samples, short fulcrums, etc, then they will not care to improve much on next models. And how we show we care? Buying and recommending the models that are objectively better than others.

In this subject of so much subjectivity is good to have some hard data of better and worst.

By the way, I analyze the mp3 that skobus gave me about the Roland FP-30 and as far I can tell it doesn't have any loops. No way I could know this and report it if we didn't have this DPBSD project.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2596313
12/19/16 09:51 PM
12/19/16 09:51 PM
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Here's my first contribution to DPBSD, a recording of dpbsd_v2.0 on a Roland DP-603 using the default piano voice and settings, 44.1khz/32-bit PCM audio format.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...p603/dpbsd_v2.0_roland_dp603_concert.wav


Current gear: Roland DP603, Roland FP-30, Pianoteq 5, LSR308 monitors
Previous gear: Yamaha CVP203 > Roland RD700SX
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2596344
12/20/16 12:05 AM
12/20/16 12:05 AM
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Nice. I don't suppose anyone is still doing analysis of DPBSD files? Full physical modeling should be a pretty significant turning point, I assume?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2596507
12/20/16 01:07 PM
12/20/16 01:07 PM
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You're probably right. Still I thought perhaps comparing a physical model to a sample might in itself be interesting to some.

I did find some interesting anomalies that I thought might be worth exploring and ones that I wouldn't have expected in a fully modeled sound (I certainly don't hear them in Pianoteq):

* 5:30-6:18 the obvious changes in tone color between adjacent notes. It sounds like the attack is the same for about an octave, then switches for the next octave, and so on, rather than being unique to each note.

* 6:38-6:42 what sounds like velocity switching, which again should not be and issue in true physical modeling

Anyone have some thoughts on the above?

Last edited by ivorytux; 12/20/16 01:09 PM.

Current gear: Roland DP603, Roland FP-30, Pianoteq 5, LSR308 monitors
Previous gear: Yamaha CVP203 > Roland RD700SX
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: MacMacMac] #2596510
12/20/16 01:24 PM
12/20/16 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
My concern with DPBSD is that it's not very useful.

The tests and charts and graphs mean little by themselves. But given an explanation, they all point to the same thing: mediocre sound performance.

That conclusion could more easily be reached by simply putting fingers on the keys.

Yes, there are differences in the sounds of the various pianos. But the ears tell the story much better than the data.


Sorry Mac, don`t judge too hard, point on this forum is talking about pianos. I agree, ears tell the story, but one day some story and another day other story. So if we measure only by the ears we can shut down this forum completely. Personally, I find this topic interesting in the beginning, but later I was lost, length of topic is too much for me and some conclusions I already have.

Last edited by slobajudge; 12/20/16 01:37 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2597209
12/22/16 04:27 PM
12/22/16 04:27 PM
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I just clicked on "AvantGrand N3" in the very first post in this thread and it seems to time out. Are files being taken offline?


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2597847
12/24/16 10:38 PM
12/24/16 10:38 PM
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wouter79, if you're looking for the MP3 files, you can find the Yamaha files here:
https://www.mediafire.com/?231dpr3ctpa8r#tcitabm1bovip

Here's a direct link to the AvantGrand N3 specifically:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/omt2myziizn/dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_avant_grand_n3.mp3

Hope that helps!


Current gear: Roland DP603, Roland FP-30, Pianoteq 5, LSR308 monitors
Previous gear: Yamaha CVP203 > Roland RD700SX
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by DDobs. 06/22/18 04:42 AM
Dynamics on note-level
by Animisha. 06/22/18 01:38 AM
Moving console-style digital pianos
by marimorimo. 06/21/18 11:55 PM
iLoud Micro users here?
by EVC2017. 06/21/18 07:51 PM
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