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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1364252 02/02/10 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma

Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.


It would be a whole lot more accurate to characterize this as "your issue", rather than an issue with the CP1/5. And you are certainly entitled to have issues.

I think Yamaha has a wee bit of experience with this sort of thing and has done the necessary research to bring forth products that meet the needs of the intended markets.

You are just not part of that market. You need to be over there, in the graded key product line, waiting for the cool new AP sound technology to get incorporated.

Now who said the CP5 may not be the replacement for the CP300. Is there actually any real chance this might be true? That could have a large effect on my purchasing plans.

Last edited by box; 02/02/10 08:22 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1364256 02/02/10 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.


You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1364276 02/02/10 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster

I'm working on a diagnostic MIDI file that could be played on any DP, recorded, then an MP3 posted for all to listen and comment on. It reveals looping, stretching, layer switching, sympathetic resonance, and partial pedaling.


+1

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1364278 02/02/10 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper

You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



I agree with this, Dr Popper.

And further, for pianodilemma's edification, once again from Athan, a respected Yamaha representative (posted originally at Keyboard Forum):

"... the NW stage is not graded. In developing this action, a number of different prototypes of the action ( some graded , some not) were developed and evaluated by a selection of pro players playing both the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos. They all felt that overall this action worked better for both the acoustics and the electrics.

The physics of the action in a reed or tine piano is very different than an acoustic piano. Of course , you really have to play it to decide for yourself, but the reaction to the keyboard action at NAMM was very, very positive."

And, to repeat myself - who actually has played the CP1 - I had no issues with the keyboard for playing AP's. None.

"pianodilemma" please play the CP1 and then share your opinions . . . .

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 02/02/10 08:48 PM.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1364296 02/02/10 09:20 PM
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https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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Yamaha CP4, CP5
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
box #1364391 02/02/10 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by box
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.


It would be a whole lot more accurate to characterize this as "your issue", rather than an issue with the CP1/5. And you are certainly entitled to have issues.


It's not just my issue, and that's the point. Otherwise, the conclusion is that Roland has totally missed the mark with the RD700GX. Yet there are artists that endorse it today. If they didn't see value in it, they wouldn't use a graded action.

Quote
I think Yamaha has a wee bit of experience with this sort of thing and has done the necessary research to bring forth products that meet the needs of the intended markets.


If this was really the case, then the CP50 wouldn't have an older graded action. If this statement is wrong, we arrive back at the product segmentation issue I mentioned in an earlier post and is what needs to be discussed. It's not as cut and dried as you make it out to be, and even experienced companies can take different directions that leave certain market segments out in the cold.

Quote
You are just not part of that market. You need to be over there, in the graded key product line, waiting for the cool new AP sound technology to get incorporated.

Now who said the CP5 may not be the replacement for the CP300. Is there actually any real chance this might be true? That could have a large effect on my purchasing plans.


Actually the CP1 and CP5 are more like spiritual successors to the CP80. That's entirely ok. But that doesn't make Roland wrong either. The closest thing to a CP300 successor is the CP50 with the GH action. Maybe that's it. Then again, it's unclear if it can be played like a real piano with three pedals (though it's looking like it's not).


RD-700GX + SN Piano Expansion
If you're playing and you know it, wash your hands! If you're playing and you know it, no sanitizer!
If you're playing and you know it, and don't want your keys to show it,
If you're playing and you know it, clip your nails!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1364397 02/02/10 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.


You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it? It's irrelevant if the action feels good, better or best. From a pure physics perspective, is the force required to move keys different across the board or not? I am most certainly qualified to ask this no matter what your opinion is.

Let's focus on this question of actual physical force of each key on the CP1 and CP5 instead. Not my opinion or yours, but actual physical fact. Then we can move on to the semantics and nomenclature.


RD-700GX + SN Piano Expansion
If you're playing and you know it, wash your hands! If you're playing and you know it, no sanitizer!
If you're playing and you know it, and don't want your keys to show it,
If you're playing and you know it, clip your nails!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1364407 02/02/10 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Dr Popper

You have not PLAYED them ... you cannot possible comment on the action's suitability for AP play.

Until you have your just speculating.



I agree with this, Dr Popper.

And further, for pianodilemma's edification, once again from Athan, a respected Yamaha representative (posted originally at Keyboard Forum):

"... the NW stage is not graded. In developing this action, a number of different prototypes of the action ( some graded , some not) were developed and evaluated by a selection of pro players playing both the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos. They all felt that overall this action worked better for both the acoustics and the electrics.

The physics of the action in a reed or tine piano is very different than an acoustic piano. Of course , you really have to play it to decide for yourself, but the reaction to the keyboard action at NAMM was very, very positive."


I understand all of that. The key word (my emphasis) is electric pianos. I've stated repeatedly on this thread that the CP1 and CP5 appear to be more focused on EPs than APs. This is also obvious when one downloads the manual for the CP1 - there is a big focus on EP sound generation.

Quote
And, to repeat myself - who actually has played the CP1 - I had no issues with the keyboard for playing AP's. None.

"pianodilemma" please play the CP1 and then share your opinions . . . .


I will ask the same thing I asked Dr Popper above: is the physical force required the same or different across the keys? No opinions, just facts.


RD-700GX + SN Piano Expansion
If you're playing and you know it, wash your hands! If you're playing and you know it, no sanitizer!
If you're playing and you know it, and don't want your keys to show it,
If you're playing and you know it, clip your nails!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1364448 02/03/10 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1364467 02/03/10 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Let me clarify one thing: does it feel graded, or doesn't it?


Yeah it does , I couldn't believe it wasn't graded after I played it.


There is a very good chance that the "grading" of the keys is done by adjusting the velocity curves. The grading could be different for different voices

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
ChrisA #1364548 02/03/10 04:46 AM
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A few more infos from the other forum. I had asked:

Quote
(1) The CP1 seems to have a 2-band and a 3-band variant of the CFIII. Does the CP5/CP50 CFIII match the 2-band or 3-band CP1 CFIII?
(2) Does the CP5/CP50 CFIII have a cut down sampling storage size compared to the matching CFIII sound in the CP1? Or is the sampling size identical?

Reply (from seemingly a Yamaha support guy):

Quote
The 2-band and 3-band variants are referencing the modeled preamp that is in the CP1. The CP5/CP50 do not have the preamp so the CFIIIS and S6 are the same source instrument minus the preamp. And yes the CP50 CFIIIS is identical to the CP1 minus the modeled preamp.

I think dewster should be happy to hear that... smile

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1364571 02/03/10 05:19 AM
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So, I uploaded some sound clips to my iDisk. Take a look there, you'll find Claire de Lune on CF and S6.
Only mistake I made, I recorded the CF clip in mono (sorry), but you'll get a good impression anyways.
Also a soundclip of DX, Case 73 and Wurly. Don't pay too close attention to my playing, it's the sound that matters :-)

http://public.me.com/pedro.gordts

Requests I'll try to handle but haven't got much time lately.



Employed by Yamaha Europe. Same deal, all my posts are personal opinions, not company opinions!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1364616 02/03/10 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Moose
Take a look there, you'll find Claire de Lune on CF and S6.


Wow. I love the woodiness of the S6!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1364619 02/03/10 08:53 AM
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I actually have been enjoying the woodiness of many of the reactions of the Yamaha CP line admirers here.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1364623 02/03/10 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by theJourney
I actually have been enjoying the woodiness of many of the reactions of the Yamaha CP line admirers here.


D'oh!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
theJourney #1364624 02/03/10 09:14 AM
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Hi Moose,

Thanks for taking the time to upload these demos.

The CFIII was disappointing...I liked my Avant Grand far better, but perhaps hearing the CF in stereo would help.

The S6...nice! "Woody" is definitely the appropriate term. wink

The case 73...really nice, and suitably Bob Jamesian.

The DX is very accurate...I have a TX-802.

The Wurly was also spot on.

Now, if we could hear the CFIII in stereo, it would really be great.

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1364676 02/03/10 10:56 AM
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Thanks Moose!

I need to hear more of the APs. The CF in mono is impossible to judge. On the S6 I hear some lovely sustain on the bass but its final decay occurring behind other notes (whilst the piece continues) sounded a bit step-like, like it faded markedly in a couple of stages. It might just be the pedaling technique used.

The Rhodes and DX are spectacular - I'm totally convinced! Although I love the sound of them I've never been sure that a Wurlitzer works as a solo instrument. Fantastic in a mix but not all that pleasant on its own. This one is very good though.

I would love to have a play of the CP1 and would actually be genuinely excited about it. The APs are maybe just slightly lacking a bit of soul, I don't know. Like I said, I'd love to hear more.

Steve


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1364681 02/03/10 11:11 AM
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Nice playing. The patches - all are terrific. Of course I am a true Yamaha-phile, but all sound better than what I am playing now. My iMac is in mono, though [flogging-dead-horse icon inserted here] wink


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1364697 02/03/10 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Moose
And so I did, picked up my brand new CP1 today...
Man, this feels amazing. I'm very used to a CP300, but man, do I prefer this one.

Moose,
Since you have both the CP1 and CP300, maybe you can answer my question: the CP300 has 3 jacks for sustain, sostenuto and soft pedals (FC3/FC4/FC5 models). The CP1 also has 3 jacks for pedals. Can the CP1 pedal unit be connected to a CP300 and if so, will Yamaha sell it separately?
Thanks,
Jose

Last edited by JGonzalezGUS; 02/03/10 11:45 AM.

Jose
Kawai K5 - Kawai CA61
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
JGonzalezGUS #1364701 02/03/10 11:53 AM
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JGonzalezGUS, I'd have to try. I'll let you know later.

I uploaded two more pieces to my iDisk, this time simple impro's, but I tried to show you all the sustain this thing has got.

One clip is CF Grand in Stereo this time, other one is also CF Grand Stereo but hammerstifness one click softer (Soft1)

Let me know what you think. I can't seem to stop playing, the CP1 is addictive as heck...

Just for the record: recorded with LogicPro thru an Apogee firewire interface. Playback on Yamaha HS80M Studio Monitors, so very clear, focused and no chance to hide behind poor speaker quality :-)

M

Last edited by Moose; 02/03/10 11:55 AM.

Employed by Yamaha Europe. Same deal, all my posts are personal opinions, not company opinions!
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