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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1362798 02/01/10 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James



I do not believe Clavia (manufacturers of Nord instruments) have every featured built-in speakers, however I may be wrong. As for action, is the Nord Piano keyboard grade-weighted?



James,

It is my understanding, the CP-300 was a very good seller, so that's why I'm speculating it may be replaced next year.

The CP-300 is apparently being kept on for now.

The new Nord Piano 88 doesn't list the keyboard as graded, nor does the Stage EX. I'm not all that familiar with Nord, except for the C1/C2 organ.


I really think there will be another CP-300 type instrument (with speakers), but, again, it's only a semi-educated guess.

Snazzy





Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1362805 02/01/10 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Now that that's out of the way......


As I said I doubted you would get it ...and as usual about most things I'm right.

You want to discuss the CP1 or CP5 ?? sure tell what you think when you have PLAYED both of them. Everything you say is simply speculation until you play them. Until you have played the boards your not really qualified to comment of the "feel". A couple of us here have played these boards and think the feel of them is fabulous.. graded or ungraded... in fact I didn't believe it wasn't graded such was the natural feel of these boards.



"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1362808 02/01/10 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer


It is my understanding, the CP-300 was a very good seller, so that's why I'm speculating it may be replaced next year.

The CP-300 is apparently being kept on for now.

The new Nord Piano 88 doesn't list the keyboard as graded, nor does the Stage EX. I'm not all that familiar with Nord, except for the C1/C2 organ.



Yeah the CP300 will continue until a replacement is released or stocks run dry.

The Nords are great boards ...good feel but not graded from what I recall. They don't like me as much as I like them so I've never owned one wink


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1362887 02/01/10 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Now that that's out of the way......


As I said I doubted you would get it ...and as usual about most things I'm right.


I know I'm right about most things too including this, but unfortunately we have to agree to disagree. As you can see by my subsequent posts, I've really tried to move on. I'd suggest doing the same.

Quote
You want to discuss the CP1 or CP5 ?? sure tell what you think when you have PLAYED both of them. Everything you say is simply speculation until you play them. Until you have played the boards your not really qualified to comment of the "feel". A couple of us here have played these boards and think the feel of them is fabulous.. graded or ungraded... in fact I didn't believe it wasn't graded such was the natural feel of these boards.



I've played several ungraded boards. They feel fine to play, but they don't feel like a real acoustic to me and in particular in the bass. Of course I will reserve final judgment, but I really can't see myself getting one of these. By the admission of others, What I really don't understand is why there's wood there. Seems like effort could've been spent somewhere else. In fact, the one picture I saw didn't even look like wood grain but something approaching particle board. Again, purely aesthetic, but it is what it is. To Yamaha's credit, it's not like the RD700GX which is clearly some synthetic wood-colored material.

I also want to say that I really think Yamaha has done a very good job on the sounds based on the demos I've heard. I wish they would've put more uprights in there and the other sounds of the CP5/50 in the CP1, but it is what it is.

So, I will again say that I will reserve final judgment, but an action is either graded or not. An acoustic piano has a graded action by virtue of its construction. The action on the CP1 and CP5 may feel fantastic, but my fundamental question goes to its authenticity to an acoustic instrument. It either is authentic to an acoustic, or it isn't authentic to an acoustic, no matter how good it feels on its own. If it's not graded, it won't feel authentic. Authenticity is what I and others are looking for. If I could get an original MP8 action, I'd get it tomorrow. Nobody appears willing to part with those boards, however, and their sound leaves something to be desired. I'm still quite curious about the CP50 and what it feels like. According to Yamaha's website, it's simply the GH. I suppose I'll know for certain by the end of March or April sometime.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1362947 02/01/10 04:45 AM
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So if authenticity is what you're after...how about a DP that drifts out of tune the moment the tuner puts his car in reverse? How about one without a volume control, headphone jack, effects etc etc.

The problem with a truly faithful replication of an acoustic is that it doesn't allow for the good bits and the bad bits to be identified and selected (or rejected), and there are some elements of a real piano that most of us would certainly reject...we all agree there are issues with acoustics that on a personal basis we don't want replicated otherwise this forum would probably not exist. In my case I can't physically accommodate a grand piano for starters. I would never choose an upright piano because I've never heard one I like. Uprights themselves are the manufacturers' way of replicating a proper piano whilst addressing the issue of size.

I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1362949 02/01/10 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Amen.


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1362972 02/01/10 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve


Exactly, Steve...they are most promising. Most of the players I've discussed this with off forum proper, would be happy whether they are graded or not.

I also think the segment for which graded is desirable (or more importantly a deal-breaker on a stage piano if it isn't there), is a lot smaller than some seem to think. Nord has probably clued in on this as well.

Time will tell if Yamaha has made the right decision.

Snazzy


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1363187 02/01/10 12:59 PM
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I don't think I ever notice whether the keyboards are graded or not. The Yamahas interest me because I know the company's products are excellent - I have had a dx21, dx7, P80 and now a cp33 - and I need something that sounds great - piano and rhodes - that I can get to a gig without needing a truck.


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Kawai James #1363773 02/02/10 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by KAWAI James
Sounds pretty good too! wink


This is my impression so far too - just "pretty good", at least for the acoustics. The electric pianos sound excellent though. I'm wondering whether my opinion will change when I hear some really high fidelity recordings, though. (or of course when I actually try one!)

Greg.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1363784 02/02/10 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
So if authenticity is what you're after...how about a DP that drifts out of tune the moment the tuner puts his car in reverse? How about one without a volume control, headphone jack, effects etc etc.

The problem with a truly faithful replication of an acoustic is that it doesn't allow for the good bits and the bad bits to be identified and selected (or rejected), and there are some elements of a real piano that most of us would certainly reject...we all agree there are issues with acoustics that on a personal basis we don't want replicated otherwise this forum would probably not exist.


I'd like to offer an alternative view here. From the perspective of feel, replicating the AP feel (including the ever-controversial escapement) is part of making an action authentic, even with its "flaws". The reason is that is exactly what the interface to the real instrument itself is and how one would interact with it.

As for tuning, I'm not talking about what happens when one moves an old CP70 too much (which is, of course, to go out of tune).
Ironically, being out of tune can both be useful, as in some piano samples that attempt to replicate an old-time piano that's out-of-tune, and not useful, as in random notes being out of tune in a straight-up Steinway D that's you'd play a sonata on. Another example is damper noise - some like it, some don't. Heck, even the highest end pipe organ simulations ensure that you can hear the blower fan. The blower fan is only necessary for authenticity to what one would hear with a real organ. It's an artifact, but a useful one to have realism.

In short, I believe there are some things that can be captured from a realism standpoint that are desirable and some that aren't, but that touch is paramount to transitioning between a real and a digital instrument. Essentially, if the particular "flaw" at hand wouldn't require calling a piano repairman to get the issue repaired, it should be a candidate for inclusion in the simulation both from a touch and from a sound generation perspective. If it makes something convenient, it's always a nice option as long as it can be dialed down to whatever extent necessary.

Quote
In my case I can't physically accommodate a grand piano for starters. I would never choose an upright piano because I've never heard one I like. Uprights themselves are the manufacturers' way of replicating a proper piano whilst addressing the issue of size.


Yet a good upright piano has a place and a tone that some people like. I agree that it isn't ideal in many ways, but it is what it is. People still use them for effect, they still record with them, and they're still tonally useful in certain situations. In the bass world, a lot of people pan the Precision bass because it's got supposedly so little character compared to the wide range of Jazz basses, but nothing punches through a mix like a P-bass.

Quote
I have come to see these Yamahas as very promising instruments and I sincerely hope they meet the needs of some of the contributors to this forum. If you rule them out due to the lack of graded keys then that's up to you. Personally, graded keys are not on my agenda although I would accept that they are desirable to a segment of the market.

Cheers,

Steve


The issue with the CP1 and CP5, as I've said before, is that they have a big emphasis on EPs. EPs have a different action than APs, and that is what these pianos appear to be addressing. I'll see what they all feel like when they get here, but right now it looks like I'll be tending towards either the CP50, the RD700GX, or a new Kawai if they announce something in the next couple of months comparable to their original MP8 action.


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If you're playing and you know it, wash your hands! If you're playing and you know it, no sanitizer!
If you're playing and you know it, and don't want your keys to show it,
If you're playing and you know it, clip your nails!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1363840 02/02/10 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma

The issue with the CP1 and CP5, .....,


I have played them both and there is no issue with the CP1 and CP5 its all in your fertile imagination.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1363900 02/02/10 09:09 AM
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My issue with the CP5 is that it's not in any stores around here yet.


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David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
daviel #1363970 02/02/10 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by daviel
My issue with the CP5 is that it's not in any stores around here yet.

Ha! That's my problem with the CP1. Does anyone here in the NY/NJ/PA area know of any store with a demo set up for tickling?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Dr Popper #1364007 02/02/10 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by pianodilemma

The issue with the CP1 and CP5, .....,


I have played them both and there is no issue with the CP1 and CP5 its all in your fertile imagination.


You are incorrect. The CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action presumably since they are trying to simulate EPs more authentically then APs. For those who seek an EP simulation, this is perfectly acceptable. Since acoustic pianos all have a graded piano action, and since the CP300 has a graded action, only the CP50 that has not been released yet has a chance to fulfill this function as a successor to the CP300 given the current model lineup, and may not be able to compete against other more mature actions.

If the CP1 and CP5 do not have a graded action, it is an issue for those who want a graded action. No amount of your incorrect characterization of this will change the facts or allow them to be diluted.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1364015 02/02/10 12:57 PM
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Try them out or choose not to...but constantly revisiting this issue will do you no good. You might like them when you play them and you might feel that your concerns were unfounded. Your opinions (at the moment just guesswork) will be more valid when you can say that you have played the CP1 and/or 5. Until then I don't think you are adding much to the debate.

Cheers,

Steve


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1364035 02/02/10 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Try them out or choose not to...but constantly revisiting this issue will do you no good. You might like them when you play them and you might feel that your concerns were unfounded. Your opinions (at the moment just guesswork) will be more valid when you can say that you have played the CP1 and/or 5. Until then I don't think you are adding much to the debate.

Cheers,

Steve


Dr Popper somehow thinks this issue is in my imagination, and brings the subject up again. Make sure you place equal cause on Dr Popper, unless you think that his comment on my imagination adds to the debate.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1364141 02/02/10 04:49 PM
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This is exactly the reason why I decided to stop posting after two or three posts. Everyone can have their own opinion, your is not better than mine, nor vice versa.
I work (and still do) for the Yamaha Company, but am or was in no way involved in the developement of the new CP-line. I work in a totally different area, but as a keyboardplayer I am ofcourse interested in our new stuff. Asking me about details I don't know anything about and then getting mad you don't get them is just one step to far, that's why I decided not to post anymore. It's true I was among a select few who had the chance to play on both CP1 and CP5 first, but similarities/differences between them, not a clue, I only had them for like ten minutes. But those ten minutes were enough for me to decide I simply HAD to get one.

And so I did, picked up my brand new CP1 today and spent somewhat two hours playing it and taking a much closer look on the details.

Here we go.

First of all, matter of taste or not, but the intensity of the backlit Yamahalogo can be changed and even switched off.

Building quality is simply superb, the instrument looks and feels solid, nice wood finish on the sideboards, similileather on top. It's neat. Few buttons, but very hands on, no unnecessary extra's, just keyboards.

Display is nice and clear and gives the information you need, three band EQ, hammer stiffness, Reberb Level, Chorus on the Rhodes patches,... I tampered a bit with the CFIII-sample and like the sound a bit better with hammer stifness soft, it just sounds warmer.

The pedal-unit is great. It has a good feel to it, and very important, it doesn't slide away from underneath your feet.

The keyboard itself then. Man, this feels amazing. I'm very used to a CP300, but man, do I prefer this one. It's somewhat lighter but so fantastically responsive. They've outdone themselves.

Sound then. The CFIII is the patch I will use the most, I already decided. I started of with some impro, high register, very low register, mid section, all great. Great sustain, no sign of looping or stretching. Clear discant and nice and full lower register. Dynamic range is fine. I tested it by playing Brahms op.10 Ballade nr. 1. Those who know the piece, know what I'm talking about :-)

Rhodes, to be explored further but up until now I prefer the Case73.

Right, a small report, I will try to make some sound examples tomorrow or later this week.


Employed by Yamaha Europe. Same deal, all my posts are personal opinions, not company opinions!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1364151 02/02/10 05:07 PM
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@Moose, thanks!! That's exactly the type of feedback we were hoping to get. Some sound examples would be awesome! Would be great if you could create one sound example which simply lets the AP sound decay, so we can hear for ourselves the lack of looping. smile

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
madshi #1364178 02/02/10 05:52 PM
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Welcome back, "Moose". I hope that you will continue to post, and will be treated will appropriate respect.

Thanks for your review. Interesting to note the number of points that are similar to my impression! (Great minds must think alike, huh!)

Lawrence


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Moose #1364202 02/02/10 06:21 PM
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Yes, thank you Moose. I do apologize if I had anything to do with driving you away.

And I agree, the biggest problem with other people trying a keyboard and reporting back is the subjective nature of the feel and sound.

Sites like the Purgatory Creek DP Shootout attempt to address the sound question. And don't get me wrong, it is a tremendous service to those of us shopping for sound sets, modelers, and DPs. But to me the MIDI file they use has too many notes playing at the same time, which makes it difficult to hear details of the individual notes.

In an attempt to make any sound questions less subjective, I'm working on a diagnostic MIDI file that could be played on any DP, recorded, then an MP3 posted for all to listen and comment on. It reveals looping, stretching, layer switching, sympathetic resonance, and partial pedaling. Would you be interested in it? That is, could you perhaps run the MIDI file through the CP1 and post an MP3? If so, I would be deeply in your debt.

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