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I think it's important to understand that pupils, parents, and teachers do not have "a" point of view.

We're all individuals with our own points of view, which may or may not be similar to others'.

Perhaps it would lead to less dispute if people phrased things as "I have an adult student with this attitude, what should I do about it?" Rather than "adult students have this attitude, what should we teachers do about it?"

Frozenicicles, you might have identified part of the problem in this discussion.

No one ever said "Adult students have this attitude..."

What we have been saying is that a few adult students or parents have attitudes...

Just a few. Not all.

Well one thing is for sure -

Adult students and piano teachers are all adults. Thus, we are all part of the same kettle of fish.

In light of this . . . .uhm. . . . conversation??, that strikes me as hilarious.

And yea - parents get tossed into this adult salad too.

As long as we're clear about that. It actually does need to be said.

And many of us who are not *piano* teachers are or have been teachers of other subjects, so we're not entirely, IMO, irrelevant. Tho there are those who think we are And I will reiterate what I said before - piano teachers are not the only ones who have the kinds of experiences, whether with initial interviews or later, discussed in this thread, so perhaps we aren't irrelevant in that regard either. Just a thought -



See above about piano teachers not being the only people with this experience. Kreisler's post with the example of his wife is illustrative. I will have to say that some of my clients, to their fiscal detriment, do similar things. It's a human thing. In my case sometimes it's even illegal




I think it's the use of the word "toxic" that's scary. I've had students who do these kinds of things in the past. But when I approach teaching, thank goodness, toxic isn't the first word that comes to mind. About students or teachers.



I disagree. These are human interactions. I've taught a lot. I'm not God, I'm a person, as are students.



I know you're not going to agree, but I'll say it anyway - this is not unique to teachers. Anyone in what's thought of as a "helping" profession - health care, pastors, counselors, parole officers, you name it - has run into it. Whether or not you want to believe it, it pains me to have clients who want to do things that are illegal - they think a little bit is ok, or they won't get caught. Until they lose their jobs.



This is not unique to piano teachers. I'm self-employed. People who own other kinds of small businesses know whereof you speak. You may think teachers, and piano teachers in particular, are somehow a cut above the local auto mechanic, but in my experience my auto mechanic cares every bit as passionately about his business as you do about yours. And his can even save lives. (Not that piano teachers can't do that, too. Music certainly has done that for me.)

It's obvious Betty and Elissa think that no opinions except experienced piano teachers should be expressed in these forums, and that only experienced piano teachers know how to deal with initial interviews with potential students, or difficult attitudes later, but I do disagree. Piano teachers may well know some things specific to piano teaching - where your elbows go, or 10 ways to teach ledger lines - but human interactions are human interactions, and many people will have relevant observations and experience.

Cathy

Elissa, I find it difficult to understand why you would respond to a topic about "lack of respect" with a comment like, "Honestly, get over it, non-piano teachers!!" I found the comment(s) upsetting and polarizing.

It sounds like you are frustrated at things that we ALL have to deal with. I get "questioned" and second guessed at my job as well, despite having a graduate degree and several years of experience.

And, yes, I DO question my doctors, teachers, etc. I feel that I have a responsibility to do so, rather than to blindly accept anything.

As an example, a couple of years ago, I began having very serious hand pain. I saw a doctor, associated with an excellent local university, who took 5 minutes to diagnose me with carpal tunnel syndrom. This was devasting, not only b/c I wanted to play piano, but I work with computers... and feared for my career.

Luckily, she was WRONG. I saw two physical therapists after that, both tested me and said, "Nope, not carpal tunnel - not sure what it is, but definitely not carpal tunnel."

The massage therapist that I worked with shortly after that said she frequently saw people misdiagnosed with carpal tunnel who did NOT GET A SECOND OPINION. They ended up having surgery, which did not fix the problem, and left them with weaker hands than before - yikes.

So, yes, I believe we have a responsibility to question people who are "guiding" us - for our own safety and so that we fully understand what's going on with ourselves.

At the end of the day, I guess I feel that my health, or my learning (in the case of piano) - is ultimately MY responsibility. This means I need to ask questions when things are unclear, get second opinions from time to time, and try to carefully evaluate whether my teacher is effectively guiding me towards better musicianship.

Finally - questions CAN be a sign of RESPECT. I recently asked my teacher "why are you steering me away from scales? Everyone on PW seems to do them, and thinks they are really important!" (very similar to some of the example questions you listed).

The truth is, if I did NOT respect him, I wouldn't bother asking, I would assume he doesn't know what he's doing and quit. (In that case, asking would be a waste of time.)

But, because I DO think he is a competent, intelligent teacher, and thus that there is likely a good reason for his choices, I want to get my concern out in the open so we can talk about it and so I can understand the disconnect (that most people think scales are important, but he doesn't seem eager to have me work on them.)

To Jotur especially, but to anyone reading this thread, about what I think the difference in other professional services compared to piano teaching are:

In piano teaching, we are in the brains and body of the person on our piano bench giving instruction as to how to read, interpret, use the body, think, execute within the forward motion of a stead beat at a keyboard instrument which is complex just in it's graphic layout and the pianists ability to bring sounds forth by how the piano was touched.

We do not give only advice or work in the way that any other teacher of any subject or other instrument in music work. We work with the whole human being and his capacity to learn to duplicate what making music is all about.

Developmental stages, attitudes, cooperation, understanding, creating paths of musical progress is what we are all about.

Learning to play piano is very similar to the work of the computer programmer - in our case the computer is the student's brain and being.

My lawyer sat in a chair and gave me advice - that advice brought forth decisions and a plan. None of which affected my brain or being - it only affected the path to a legal settlement. He was the smart person, I was the person being guided to a planned conclusion. At all times he held the cards as to the success. That it took 5 years to arrive at the final award for an injury suit should not be my complaint. We got there finally, but at no time did anyone touch anyone's elbow or try to teach me a thing. It was all about strategy and using the facts to my advantage, and then, the horrible, horrible part of putting up with the final days when their attorney tried to minimize the reward, intimidate my witnessing in a 6 hour meeting where everything was on record. My role in this 5 year ordeal was as the victim of someone's irresponsible behavior which brought long term injury to my body.

I bring out this comparison of professional differences. At no time did it feel good to be in the attorneys office, the medical and physical therapy treatments, all the documents and case building. The expense of it, where my attorney actually earned more in fees than I received in award.

So, whether it's a minister or psychologist or lawyer giving counsel, their work may suggest helpfulness but it is in the role of piano teaching that at every lesson we give it is obvious as to whether or not we are good at our profession of teaching piano or not. It is obvious when we sit at the piano and play our favorite repertoires or sight read for the first time that we are displaying our talents and abilities. Other professions, including medicine, take a much longer time to show progress or resolution, some maybe never.

We are on display professionally every moment we are conducting a lesson or playing the piano. We either are effective and efficient piano teachers or we are not. It's evident constantly.

No tenure here unless we're doing good work. One on one private lessons and one one one relationships being built. I know of no other more intimate and intensive on-going activity that has this kind of scrutiny and accountability built into it.

It our teaching is to work, we must take full charge of what happens in our presence. Every minute is valuable and not to be wasted by anything unimportant or sidetracking us from our purpose. Those minutes we spend with a student are an investment of someone's money toward a purpose and as far as I'm concerned I'm on a "timer" at every lesson to fit in the most important thing, the priority of what will be worked on in each lesson.

It's called structure.

Betty

It's all in how questions are asked. It's pretty obvious that on an internet forum, you can't hear tone of voice or see body language.

It doesn't bother me when parents or students ask questions. That shows they are engaged. But questions can be asked in a confrontive, offensive way. That's where the problems are.

If you are coming to me for an interview and the way you asks questions implies you don't trust my experience and expertise, we will not work together. But that is, in part, why I feel I must lead the interview, not the other way around. I demonstrate, through the interview and how I conduct it, that I have experience and know what I'm doing. It is an opportunity for the parents to begin to put their trust in me.

Well said, saerra. And I think it's interesting that a little while ago we had a thread about badly taught transfer students and how shameful it was that there were teachers around taking money who didn't know what they were doing. It's almost as if students are only supposed to question bad teachers - that is, not US.

edited to take note of Minniemay's comment - yes, I agree that the way questions are asked is important.

Oh brother.

Yes, 'get over it' is a blunt suggestion to those who are wide-eyed with amazement that teaching involves interpersonal to-ing and fro-ing regarding trust and respect (sometimes described by sociologists as powerplay).

Yes, teaching is similar to other kinds of professional services in that humans are interacting with each other. But as Betty said, other professional interactions operate on different assumptions to the assumptions made with educators. And then WAY more trust is required on the part of the parent when sending their child in for a one-on-one lesson than in other educational contexts.

A good example: in a medical environment 'getting a second opinion' is part of a good diagnostic process. When learning the piano having two separate teachers working on the same material is often quite counter-productive and confusing. Once a student has reached a certain point of mastery, on the other hand, having a masterclass with another teacher can produce brilliant insights and leaps in understanding. It's all about what is appropriate at different stages of development.

And I think that the 'I'm so shocked you mentioned 'power' in relation to piano lessons' response is completely valid from the many non-piano teacher participants in this conversation. Be shocked. But then get over it. Just like the rest of human existence (and detailed in posts above) in piano teaching there are 'clients' who don't behave well, and music being a beautiful thing doesn't seem to stop the minority from behaving badly.

That's not pleasing, it's not ideal, but it's the way it is. Get over it. And let's get on with coming up with some great suggestions for how to conduct that first interview so that the trust relationship is established well from the get-go.

I too find the "get over it" line unhelpful at best.

Couldn't agree more!!!

As in post above - yes, it is blunt advice.

How about 'stop being so naive'? Or, 'your self-righteousness is not assisting the debate'? Or 'can we move on from this unrealistic view of how piano lessons work'?

I'm not going to touch just how wrong I think that statement is, in so many ways.



If you actually think only piano teachers take those issues into account, you are, IMNSHO, vastly ignorant. Of other teaching, of other professions, of human beings.



I've been a computer programmer, too. Until very recently, when neural networks started being modeled, computers were in fact nothing like a human brain. (They still may not be, but neural networks are, I think, a vast improvement in the modeling.) Again, I find that analogy to be one made from ignorance. And I will refrain from commenting on other aspects of the above viewpoint that I find repugnant.



If you don't think your lawyer was taking into consideration human factors, including in dealing with you, not to mention the other side, it only attests to the skill of your lawyer.



Excuse me. But at every session with your lawyer it was obvious whether or not your lawyer is good at his/her profession. Or should be The implication that somehow a piano teacher has a wider role than a minister or psychologist (or, in my opinion, a car mechanic), is, to me, laughable.



As is true in my profession.



I was adjunct faculty when I taught at a college, so tenure wasn't an issue. Most colleges require many years of work, both teaching and research, before tenure is given. And, believe it or not, sometimes those with tenure are competent, and keep their job because of it Any one who has a job, period, may be fired for not doing good work. Piano teachers aren't the only ones. I've switched car mechanics, just to not switch examples here, because the first one was incompetent. Any independent contractor has to be up to snuff. You and other piano teachers don't have a corner on that market.

I believe that you know of no other "more intimate and intensive on-going activity that has this kind of scrutiny and accountability built into it." I don't believe that there *are* no other activities like that. It looks self-important, to me, to assign one's own profession such a high status. Perhaps you think if only we had more piano teachers with power there would be peace in the world?



I charge by the hour, too. I don't think it was piano teachers that came up with the maxim "time is money."

So I still disagree

Cathy

The irony factor in this quote is quite high

Cathy

Sometimes a parent asks to come see the studio and meet me, but I am usually the one who uses the word "interview" or sometimes "audition/interview." I generally explain it's a chance to meet and find out if we are a good parent-teacher-student "fit."

There have been a couple interviews in which one parent asks many questions and does a bit of comparing with prior teachers or the parents' childhood teachers, but in this case they seem genuinely curious and just want to have a better understand of what my music studio is "all about."

If I should feel defensive, it usually means I have not prepared well for the interview, and am caught off-guard by a perfectly reasonable question coming from a person who simply has a different background and may not carry around the same set of assumptions. It's some sort of paradigm shift for me, and not always a bad thing. It's helpful to begin to understand how my clients see piano lessons and music education in general.

I've never detected any condescension or animosity from a parent or adult student. I like to know the whole family, and get a sense of the dynamics among all of us, so that communication in the future will be free from misunderstandings or just plain old second-guessing.

Ah, I should have just quoted Minniemay and left it at that ... she said it best!

I'm attempting to be helpful to the young teachers, but this intention has been WILDLY subverted by a discussion about how horrible teachers are when they use words like 'power' when discussing some of the problems in lessons, and further subverted by my own indiscriminate use of blunt suggestions to those horrified by horrible teachers, of which I am clearly one. :-)

Clearly, this forum is not one for this kind of language (the word 'power' is obviously as unhelpful as the phrase 'get over it')..... Although I think there is a fundamental disconnect between the experiences of adult learners who have simply loved every minute of their lessons (much the way I did as a student) and those teachers who have had some 'interesting' experiences along the way, and have struggled to find ways to cope.

A little understanding in this discussion wouldn't go astray regarding the situation some teachers find themselves in with genuinely disrespectful students (and yes, I think all the teachers in this forum are capably of distinguishing between excited questioning and disrespectful questioning).

I will say, a piano teacher does tend to have a lot of "face-time" with the client (the student and often the parent as well). We're nearly always on-display, so Betty is right in that WYSIWYG, as should be evident from the first lesson.

Teaching private lessons is a lot like acting in a play (not on the screen, where down-time is plenty; husband's been on plenty of movie sets to see this). No daydreaming allowed during a lesson (or likewise during surgery, closing arguments, or while hoisting an intake manifold from a pickup truck).

Master classes are like second opinions. I love sending a student to a master class to hear what another teacher might say. Typically there is some difference in terms of interpretation, but when talking nuts-and-bolts (technique, posture, rhythm, steady tempo) the student finds that it's a lot like his or her weekly lesson. They even say that to their parents (who relay it back to me).

But this is an entirely different topic. Think I'll go for now. See you all tomorrow.