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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361471 01/30/10 08:32 AM
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@Melodialworks Music, thanks for your report!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
1) action - graded or not graded is irrelevant. (Play it if you think it will be a factor, and then decide). Much lighter than V-Piano, in the sense that less effort produces greater effect, for example accenting. The action seemed lighter to me than V-Piano. I couldn't tell for sure, in the noisy environment, if it was quieter than V-Piano's, but I suspect it was. The CP1 action will take a bit of getting used to, having played the V-Piano's so much.

You're describing the action properties here, but I'm not how much you really liked or disliked it. Could you add a few more comments about that?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361535 01/30/10 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Fantastic bass on one of the S6 patches - very authentic, and using headphones, no less!

I was really hoping you would say the S6 patches sucked, so I wouldn't miss them should the CP50 somehow magically appear on our keyboard stand smile

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I tried tweaking the reverb, but couldn't hear any changes.

From my limited experience with adding reverb in post-process to close-mic recordings of real pianos, the string resonance is often so strong and reverb-like that it swamps out any reverb I am adding. Unless I add a ton of reverb I can't hear it very well. So, if you really were adjusting the reverb level, this might be considered a good sign.

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I liked one of each of the two AP types better than the other. If they are the two that will be in the CP5, then that would become quite tempting.

An interesting experiment would be to set the EQ of the two CFIII patches (or the two S6 patches mad ) to flat and see if they then sound the same. If so, then who cares about the two preamp thing (and the CP5/50 are again perhaps viable choices).

I know it must have been hard to hear with bombs blowing up all around you and all, but could you heard any looping or strangeness in the AP decay? In that one video of the CP1, the guy holds a bass note for a long time while yacking over the top of it, and it sounded impressively long. Did the decay seem long like a real piano, or did it seem shorter (like a real DP smile )?

Also, you might want to invest in some sealed phones. I have a pair of AKG K271 that are pretty good at blocking noise, and they sound great as well (for sealed phones). I wear them for hours every day while my wife teaches her piano lessons. They help me hold onto what little sanity I have left.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1361575 01/30/10 01:01 PM
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OK. I returned to the store this morning for a second try. A 40 min. warp speed drive down the highway. The store opens at 10AM, so I arranged to be early, get in right at opening, and hopefully spend some quality time with the CP1 before the store got noisy. (No wife with me this time . . . . ). I went this time armed with a few pages from the manual & data list, in case I would get stumped and need to look something up.

Upon reviewing the documentation last night, I realized that for changing the reverb settings, for example, I had missed a step. First you have to hold the reverb block button down for a few seconds, a new screen pops up, and then you have access to the reverb settings. (Last night I was just pressing down Knob 6 RevSend, with apparently no success . . . . at least that I could hear).

BTW, there have been posts appearing stating that the CP1 is a electric piano with acoustic added on - using the lack of graded action to prove the point. With respect, I think that the point is being missed, regarding this position. The AP's on this instrument PLAY better than ANY other hardware digital piano that I've played (with the exception of V-Piano). They sound great. It's obvious to me that great strides have been made with the AP. (Samples + Modeling, remember!) The player/instrument connectivity is superb with the AP's. That's what I'm after - superb player/instrument connectivity AND superb sound. With sampled libraries, great sound can be found, but not with effective player/instrument connectivity. Am I happy with what Yamaha has done in this regard? Absolutely. My sampled libraries will remain in retirement.

I also again realized from reviewing the documentation that last night I had only checked out the first four patches, thinking that that covered the 2AP patches of the CF and S6 respectively. I had totally missed patch 5 Lush Piano. (I seemed to recall that Dr Popper liked this patch in particular . . . ).

So, I started at the store this morning with a factory reset, checked that stretch tuning was enabled (it was), and then straight to auditioning the first five AP patches. I spent about 40 min. before the store started to get loud. The first 30 was very good, and the first 15 or so was basically just little old me.

Impressions.

Action.
I liked it very much. I was really concentrating on the sound (since I could actually hear it this time) and comparing the AP's and the effect of tweaks. I realized two things about the action (1) much more expressive than V-Piano (and easier to be expressive) with greater timbral change - dig into the keys and you get a great response, and (b) I wasn't actually noticing the action, it was there, worked, natural, a pleasure to play - not much to say about it really. I really wonder in a blind test if you could tell if it was graded or not? I don't know, but I certainly didn't feeling like I was missing anything in the action.

AP Sound.
I found the CFIII to be bright, but I'm not actually all that accustomed to Yamaha piano sound. The tone knobs work for taming this, but I also found adjusting hammer hardness (to Soft 1 or even Soft 2) worked very well. (On the V-Piano I typically softened the hammers as well. Don't forget I doing new age piano, not rocking out!) I liked the CFIII better than the S6, which actually surprised me, with patches 1 (CF Grand) and 5 (Lush Piano) being the best. Both are versions of the CF 3Band. These patches seem to have personality with a character for each of the bass/ mid/ treble, but in a good way. All three ranges worked very well.

Reverb.
Understated. Tweaking seemed to not have a great deal of effect (no pun intended) but the store was starting to get noisy but this point. However, this is definitely not a "drowned in reverb" type of instrument, as far as the AP's are concerned. (I didn't check out any of the EP's). This is a good thing! The AP's were standing TALL on their own.

Bottom line?
The V-Piano will be going. I will be replacing it with either the CP1 or the CP5. I need to determine if I can get an identical AP sound on the CP5 (identical to the CP1) by using the same settings. Dr Popper had mentioned when he tried the CP1 and CP5 that "The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches than the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch . . . " This was based on only a few minutes with each board. I wonder if the settings were the same? If not, could the CFIII's be made to sound the same on both boards? If so, then I would opt for the CP5 to (a) spend fewer scrumbeanies, and (b) have the on-board strings, pads etc. which would be useful. However, if the CP5 AP cannot be made to sound identical to the CP1, then I would opt for the CP1.

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361578 01/30/10 01:08 PM
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One thing I forgot. I liked the vinyl look / feel on the top of the keyboard deck. I suspect it will not show finger prints / smudges like the (high) gloss finishes do, and also be less prone to showing dust - although I'm a good boy and keep my keyboard covered with a dust cover, when not in use.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361592 01/30/10 01:28 PM
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D'oh! I just checked the SCM Block Diagram for the A. Piano Type

CP1: A. Piano Type to Pre Amp to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor to Speaker Simulator
CP5: A. Piano Type to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor

So, I guess this means that the CP5 AP cannot be made to sound the same (i.e. as good as) the CP1.


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361594 01/30/10 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I liked the CFIII better than the S6

Music to my (CP50 wannabe) ears!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
My sampled libraries will remain in retirement.

Wow!

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
The V-Piano will be going. I will be replacing it with either the CP1 or the CP5

Now you're the one getting me excited!

I take it there is absolutely no hint of looping in the decay of individual notes? Could you state that for the record?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361598 01/30/10 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
CP1: A. Piano Type to Pre Amp to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor to Speaker Simulator
CP5: A. Piano Type to Modulation Effect to Power Amp/Compressor

If there is no "Pre Amp" stage in the CP5, that means you probably have to use the global tone controls, which doesn't strike me as all that crippling.

And what kind of modulation effect could you possibly want in an AP signal chain? Or speaker simulator for that matter? That stuff is usually used on EPs.

I'm not giving up quite yet.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1361605 01/30/10 01:49 PM
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1361609 01/30/10 02:00 PM
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Ref the link above...have just watched it. It's a shame that their usual guy hasn't done the demo because he's a much better player and tends to demonstrate the other sounds too.

There are a couple of moments when this particular guy leaves his foot on the sustain pedal and it is ringing away very nicely. Difficult to tell Dewster but I don't think I heard looping...could be promising for you!

Steve


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361628 01/30/10 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


What is quite fascinating to me, however, is (a) that you joined simply to comment to me, (b) your continued avoidance of discussion of a proposed set of features which might have made more sense, (c) your certainty that Yamaha people are reading this forum, and (d) your continued insistence on referring the P series. Is there a Myspace or Facebook page for your band? I would really like to see the type of music you play so I could get a better perspective of possibly understanding why you might not value graded actions (e.g. lots of synth parts where a straight-up synth action might be better, soundscaping, etc.).


Let me see; I'll try and address your fascinations.


They're only questions. Your ascription of the quality of fascination is incorrect.

Quote
(a)I actually registered two days ago, and my response to your post was merely because I wondered why you criticized Yamaha's approach to the CP series.


Your first post was about why you thought I was or wasn't qualified, which is an ad hominem. You discussed very little about the content in question, and you've tried very hard to distract from the issues I brought up.

Quote
(b) I'm simply not interested.


But other people are interested, including me. That's why I'll continue discussing it whether or not you want to.

Quote
(c)I know what I know, and I'm simply not at liberty to reveal names.


I don't really care who specifically, but it's more that you know this is occurring that is interesting. And given that you know for certain that specific unnamed Yamaha people are here, your very recent registration and your extremely strong and unyielding position represented by your comments, I'm led to believe that you have some other motive. Naturally I can't confirm that, but circumstantially it appears odd.

Quote
(d) The "P" series seemed to be more what you'd be looking for; the CP's ungraded action is not to your liking.


I'm not looking for a home-grade instrument. I'm looking to be able to have more fine-grained MIDI control, additional good sounds, better and more durable actions, and overall durability.

Quote
The "band" is a church group, and no, we're not on Facebook. I played in a band in high school as well.


Assuming this is true, it is odd that you would take such a strong position given your limited exposure.

Quote
I don't feel graded actions have no value; I simply think Yamaha's idea for an ungraded actioned stage piano is better than if it was graded. I do feel that graded isn't necessary for my playing, and I do feel it was only implemented on acoustic pianos because of the inherent nature of the instrument.


I think your position has been made patently clear numerous times. Would you at least acknowledge the fact that there are individuals who do value a graded action (and, for that matter, the ever-controversial "escapement") in a stage piano?

Quote
Wouldn't you rather if all keyboards had an even action? If they could make an acoustic piano with ungraded keys, would you still prefer graded?


What I wish for and what is real are two different things. So long as real instruments cannot be made with an even action, they will be graded. For so long as they are graded, I and many others will wanted a graded action in a portable format. There are video games that simulate reality by attempting to recreate flaws such as fine wrinkles in skin. To not recreate them is to deny the reality, even though nobody wants their skin to wrinkle. Doing any less means it's less authentic and, therefore, less accessible to certain segments of the population.

Quote
The only time I would prefer a synth type action would be for organ playing, but I already have an A-100 with a 122 Leslie cabinet at the church.


All the more reason why someone who is an organ player (playing real pipe organs) would want that specific action to practice on. Hence why a balanced action is good for EPs, a graded action for APs, and a sprung organ action for organs. This is why the CP1 and CP5 appear fine from an EP perspective, but not an AP perspective. This is why I pointed out that there is a gap here, particularly given the previous CP300.

Quote
Do you play in a band?

Colleen


Not currently. Years ago I did some session work on bass for a local group putting some demos together, but it never went anywhere. I was also the keyboard and bass player in my stage band in middle school. I do work with live artists directly and indirectly in defining my products, but no live band right now. My hope is to do some jazz and rock work eventually with the right group of people, either on bass or piano.


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If you're playing and you know it, clip your nails!
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361646 01/30/10 02:59 PM
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Lawrence,

Thank you so much for your very informative review.

I'm even more excited about the CP series now that you've basically confirmed the acoustic pianos are great.

It's also good to know the ungraded action felt wonderful.

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.

Thanks again,

Colleen

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361659 01/30/10 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma



I don't really care who specifically, but it's more that you know this is occurring that is interesting. And given that you know for certain that specific unnamed Yamaha people are here, your very recent registration and your extremely strong and unyielding position represented by your comments, I'm led to believe that you have some other motive. Naturally I can't confirm that, but circumstantially it appears odd.



First of all, I do not care for your confrontational and suspicious attitude.

I find you a very unpleasant and tiring individual, and you can consider this my last reply to you.

Peace,

Colleen

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361661 01/30/10 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.


He has posted his views throughout this 56 page thread, and probably others as well. Search the forum for dr popper and you'll find plenty of reading!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361673 01/30/10 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Colleen_500

Now, we must wait on Doctor Popper for his point of view.


He has posted his views throughout this 56 page thread, and probably others as well. Search the forum for dr popper and you'll find plenty of reading!


Thank you Lawrence, I'll have a look.

You guys are so cool.

Colleen


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361685 01/30/10 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!


Excellent report, and very well covered, Lawrence. I'm just in the not so exclusive-the "picky club", but I'm gettin' my hopes up that I'll have a replacement for my CP-300.

Hopefully the CP-5 will have an AP sound that compares favorably with the the CP-1's...I need those extra sounds, especially strings and organ, so I'll only need one instrument for any gigs...the idea of the non-graded action is very appealing to me.

Thanks for sharing your perceptions and views.

Snazzy



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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1361689 01/30/10 04:08 PM
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Thank you Lawrence.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
EssBrace #1361709 01/30/10 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
This went up about an hour ago...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/0/p1ZXowO-3s0

Steve


This is impressive Steve. It's not like I'm going to use it all the time, but the CP-80 patch was fabulous; the bottom notes were replicated perfectly.

It is a shame he didn't showcase the Rhodes and FM piano.

The pedal unit looks okay, but I'd like to see 3 pedal designed with a rubber extension plate that your heel can rest on; something like the Roland DP-10.
I can't recall, but does the Roland V-Piano's pedals have a plate to rest your heel?

Thank you for the link.

Colleen



Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361722 01/30/10 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
[quote=EssBrace]
I can't recall, but does the Roland V-Piano's pedals have a plate to rest your heel?


Yes it does.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1361726 01/30/10 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by snazzyplayer
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music

In either case, this is going to be a great instrument to own and play and explore and compose and record with! I feel like I will be entering an exclusive club - the "nitpicky but satisfied with a DP club"! Hint to "dewster", new members welcomed!


Excellent report, and very well covered, Lawrence. I'm just in the not so exclusive-the "picky club" . . .


Snazzy -

No, not "picky club". The "nitpicky" (also spelled "nit picky"). There's a BIG difference!

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Melodialworks Music #1361736 01/30/10 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music


No, not "picky club". The "nitpicky" (also spelled "nit picky"). There's a BIG difference!


You're right...my bad. For my penance I will play an upright piano, perhaps a U3, for 15 minutes. wink

Lawrence, the pedal unit, for the V-Piano, that my friend Colleen was talking about...does it have three separate plugs...like, one for each pedal?

I'm thinking it would be a mite handy if it would work in the CP-1.

I'm already using Roland DP's (I think they're DP-10's) on my CP-300 and P-85...those rubber foot plates are slicker than frog hair.

Snazzy

BTW, your website is really nice. Beautiful music. You are very talented, my friend.




Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
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