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Nope, no meat in Impromptu, and very little in the way of literal truth, but what a yummy confection.

D4v3, you don't have to bother godwin-ing. Hitler and the Nazis have been referenced a good many times on this thread because of their brutal suppression of Polish culture and interdiction against playing Chopin.

Backing up a little: we don’t know who the Immortal Beloved was, either.

As far as those musical mysteries go, I think we have to accept some things as unknowable. I am a little put out right now after reading more “facts” presented by certain authors. One is John O’Shea, who stated that Chopin subsisted on “bread and confectionery,” supplemented by fish and lean chicken, and that he developed a “polyphagia” for carbohydrates. He says that this is revealed by “careful study of his dietary habits.” I’m sorry, folks, but although we have some clues about what the man liked to eat and what he couldn’t stomach, none of us were following him around at every meal and keeping a log of his intake. And the idea of polyphagia (eating a great deal, excessive appetite) sounds incredibly unlikely for someone who at times had to be reminded to eat. O’Shea gives a footnote for this, but I’m unable to read what the source is in the Google Books excerpt of his work.

(My intuitive information is that he was crazy about potatoes, particularly with barszcz czerwony. But I would not presume to know what proportion of his diet consisted of potatoes or how many of them he actually consumed. Which would be pretty irrelevant anyway.)

O’Shea also mentioned the incident where the 18-year-old Fryderyk played a bit at an inn and the audience picked him up and carried him on their shoulders. He takes this as meaning that the young man was so utterly exhausted by the performance that he couldn’t walk. Good grief. The people who heard him did that because they were so excited by what they had heard. They gave him cookies, too. (Oh, no, carbohydrates!) At least that’s the story that we’ve received, and since we have no other evidence that he was utterly prostrated by playing during his teens, I’m going with that.

In general, I'd appreciate it if authors would present not-quite-facts with "it appears that" or "as far as is known" or some such weasel words.

The line drawing posted above is anatomically impossible, and little or no information can be derived from it regarding Chopin’s technique. It does make me wonder, again, about the effects of the incredibly restrictive clothing worn in those days, both the choking collars and the corsets, on one’s playing.

The painting with the spirit forms swirling about the piano-- perhaps the less said the better, but at any rate the solid female form with ribbons in her hair is obviously meant to be Mme Sand.

Elene

The picture of Chopin at the piano is interesting. I know that it's only a drawing, and probably is meant as only that. However it's interesting to note that people sat at the piano a little differntly than we do today. I was told this by the people at the Frederick Collection. Today we sit more forward, but in those days, the sat more erect and further back from the piano. I think too that this may have had something to do with the clothing that they wore back then with ridgid belts, corsets, and collars.

The idea of Chopin being carried overhead, Elaine, to me is not for someone who was exhausted, but more in celebration for his performance. This is the way that we treat ball players today at the end of a great game or competition. Some authors go out of the way to show how weak he was, when he probably wasn't for a good part of his life.

John

My favorite event in Chopin's life is when he went and visited Scotland. If I recall correctly he thought the women were bores and had such disdain for people that looked at their hands when they played, which is why maybe in the drawn image he is looking straight ahead.

That would be a Broadwood square. Chopin played on some squares he liked - probably Pleyel or Erard.

page 40 of G.R. Marek's Chopin. Does anybody have it?

Not much of a favourite for him. He was dying most of the time and nearly killed in a coach crash!

(Raising my hand): nothing relating to polyphagia on p. 40 of my edition of Marek (London, 1979).

Jeff Kallberg

-Elene...in reference to "Backing up a little: we don’t know who the Immortal Beloved was, either."... it's generally accepted among Beethoven scholars that Antonie Brentano, was the Immortal Beloved. Maynard Solomon, in his "Beethoven", makes an extraordinarily strong case for her, and it's largely through his work that most have come to acknowledge her. Of course, there's no absolute (key word here) concrete, physical evidence identifying her, as such, and we may never truly know her identity, but I'm more than convinced by, and agree with, Solomon. If you've not read the biography, it's well worth the time.

Elene-what, exactly, do you mean by, "(My intuitive information is that he was crazy about potatoes, particularly with barszcz czerwony...)"?

I'm with you in regard to authors, who state, as fact, events that cannot be verified any more than can one of them verify the existence of Adam and Eve. Unfortunately, (and I've stated this before) that's how we end up with all of these overly romanticized notions about the lives of many composers, and the events that surrounded and affected them. That's a huge reason, I think, that, much of what is presented as "fact" needs to be run through the sifter. Quite often, when anecdotes are set against a historical, factual background, the story takes a different shape entirely.

I agree! I've said this in so many words here myself. This the bad part of history and famous people. In some ways we have now way of knowing what is real and what is a biographerer's overly dramatic writing mostly to give himself a nice position in the historical context.

Unfortunately the real facts sometimes put our beloved romaticized composers into a less than better light once we read about how they more likely lived.

John

I've just been browsing through the forum here and reading some older posts and ran across this one. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me why the Paderewski edition is wrong in asserting 1837 as the date of composition for the posthumous c minor nocturne. I realize that, stylistically, it seems to, perhaps, belong to an earlier period. There is some thought that it's not the work of Chopin at all, though the manuscript is in his handwriting. The theory, is that, it's perhaps, his rendering of a piece written by Maria Wodzinska (who did study with Field). Apparently she sent Chopin one of her compositions, but that's all that's known. At any rate, I'm curious as to the basis for the proposed 1827 composition date as opposed to the date given by Paderewski, and why his date is in error.

I read Solomon’s book on Beethoven some years ago and thought the question of the Immortal Beloved was fairly well settled too, but when it came up a few days ago here, I did a search, being unable to remember the lady’s name. I found that the controversy is still alive and well. The Wikipedia entry “Immortal Beloved” gives: “The currently fading academic favour for Antonie Brentano as the putative recipient may be attributed to the arguments adduced in an influential book by the Beethoven scholar Maynard Solomon.” The article goes on to give reasons gleaned from more recent scholarship that make Antonie seem a less likely candidate. Apparently her identity as Beethoven’s beloved is no longer so generally agreed upon. I have no clue and no opinion about this myself-- I’m only reporting what I read.

Regarding the potatoes and barszcz: I’m a fairly skilled clairvoyant and medical intuitive, and what I think of as a "small medium"-- not as good a medium as I'd like, but decently able. Chopin makes himself quite accessible to quite a few people, and it’s possible to get a lot of information from and about him through intuitive means. (Though, as I’ve pointed out, that still doesn’t mean that we can get pure, unbiased, absolutely reliable information, or that we can find out anything and everything we might wish.) There’s kind of an amusing story attached to the potato thing, which came up last November, and I guess I should package it up and put it on my blog so you can see it if you want. I’ve just recently starting posting Chopin-related material there.

Elene (not Elaine or Elena, by the way)

Thirty years ago, I watched a fictional movie about some mermaids. In the movie, the main background music was Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 1. It was the most beautiful music I ever heard. I went home and dug up the sheet music of it. I practiced it like crazy then went back to the theater a few days later to see the movie/listen to the music again. I watched this movie 3 times total but can't remember much of the movie now.

http://www.box.net/shared/icf5f425t1

Hope you enjoy it.

His is (New York, 1978). You sure there's nothing on another page?

Yes, I'm quite familiar with some of the more recent findings. I belong to the American Beethoven Society and regularly receive the "Beethoven Journal", in which, less than a decade ago, it was theorized that Bettina Brentano, might be the Immortal Beloved. Many of the more recent questions that have arisen have been the result of published letters from the Brentano family (by Martin Kopitz...the same Kopitz, whose present theory is that Elisabeth Roeckel is Beethoven's Elise...which has been discussed elsewhere). Many recent theories make inferences that Solomon, didn't take certain details into account in his reasoning, but Solomon, specifically addresses some of the very points being questioned in his biography. That said, Wikipedia, is, by no means, the definitive authority on any subject and can be amended by anyone. As a result, the information presented therein, is, at times, slanted, which, is fairly obvious from the articles line (which I read) that begins "The currently fading academic favour for Antonie Brentano..." It may be fading for a few, but the supportive evidence is, still, quite highly regarded by most. I'm not knocking Wikipedia (or your findings), but really, it's authorship and content, at times, is questionable and some of it's language (as above) should be amended so as not to appear quite so absolute.
All that said, there really is no way (as yet) to determine, definitively, who the "Beloved" is. Personally, I'm not convinced that Solomon's findings are faulty, but, then again, he could be completely wrong. I doubt we'll ever know.

As to the intuitive thing...that's interesting...to say the least. I'd like to read the potato story, if you ever post it.

I would be relieved to think that Antonie's identity as the Beloved was clear and that we actually knew for sure, or reasonably for sure, about this. It would be nice to know something for sure. Is there a place where one can read Solomon's refutation of those criticisms of the Antonie theory?

And I'd like to think that Ludwig had a beautiful and satisfying romance with someone-- but is even that much clear?

I'm afraid that I've forgotten much of what little I did know about Beethoven. I do remember that, as with the Chopin bios, there was a lack of agreement between books on some points, almost as if you were reading about two different people. No, I don't remember many details.

Wikipedia is certainly often questionable, and in fact I would like to bring up a couple of questionable bits it has to say about Chopin in its current incarnation, but I haven't gotten to that yet.

LA, thanks for posting the lovely nocturne. There's been so much discussion around here of how much rubato is enough or too much-- I think this performance gets that just right.

Elene

The date most Chopin scholars accept is actually around 1847. This is based on evidence derived from the kind of paper Chopin used in the three extant manuscripts (one sketch, one rough autograph, one clean autograph): without getting too much into the details, the paper cannot derive from either 1827 or 1837. On the other hand, it is entirely consistent with paper he was using toward the end of his composing career.

Jeff Kallberg

Wow!
How's that, folks?

Sometimes internal analysis involves more than just the music!

From the music itself, I would have almost sworn the piece was earlier.

Thank you, Mr. Kallberg. That's incredible information and something I was not, at all, aware of. It really puts things into a different perspective, completely.

Funny.....he said to call him "Jeff" but I don't think anyone has (except me, once or twice) and most people seem to be saying "Dr. Kallberg." I guess Mr. Kallberg is a good compromise.