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Best baby grand <$10k? #1358990
01/26/10 11:17 PM
01/26/10 11:17 PM
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strokeoluck Offline OP
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A little background: my wife and I do not know how to play piano. Our 9 year old son took a few lessons and didn't care for it - he's big time into sports. Our 11 year old daughter has been taking lessons for a couple years now. She seems to enjoy taking lessons, but none of us (including her) envision her playing professionally or anywhere close to professionally. In fact at dinner tonight she initially said she'll probably play for the next "3-4 years", at which point she's guessing she'll be too busy with various high school activities and homework. Of course what 11 year old knows what the heck they'll be doing in 3-4 years?!

My wife feels it's time for us to upgrade from our $150 Target keyboard, to a real piano. We have the space (a decent size living room that is never used) and we are able to afford a <$10k piano.

Anyway, we were initially going to look at buying a simple, used upright on Craigslist. However, I quickly learned that there are issues w/these pianos - the brands vary widely, the conditions vary widely (especially here in MN where the dramatic swings between hot/cold and dry/damp are dramatic), we wouldn't really know how to properly evaluate the condition (I know we can hire a tuner to check it out but that seems like it would quickly become cumbersome; I travel a lot), and then there's the moving logistics.


So we decided to visit some retail stores and see what they had to offer. I visited two today - one of which is a 20 store chain that has a reputation for being good, a bit pricey but good. They carry Steinway, Boston, Kawai (sp?) and their own "house brand" that is built for them by Kawai. The salesman (who was darn good) said that for our needs and price point he would recommend a Kawai that normally (?) retails for $13k, but had been marked down to $9k. He said they purchasd these in bulk from some other piano dealers that couldn't afford to keep them in inventory (high finance costs). His point to me was that if we were willing to spend $5k or so on a decent upright, we should splurge a bit and get a nice furniture piece, a piano that will provide a much better sound and experience for our daughter, that will likely hold it's value better over 10 years, etc.

The next place I visited was a Yamaha dealer. He wasn't quite the salesman but told me that Yamaha is the most widely played piano in the professional ranks (true?). He recommended the GB1K, which was on sale for $9k.

A few questions for the group:

- For our needs is a baby grand the way to go vs an upright?

- If so, what baby grand brand/model would you recommend for our needs and budget?

- What do you think we should be paying for a new Yamaha GB1K? What's the comparable Kawai and what do you think we should pay for that one?

- What else do you think we should know about this purchase?

Thanks much!









Last edited by strokeoluck; 01/26/10 11:19 PM.
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Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1358996
01/26/10 11:25 PM
01/26/10 11:25 PM
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guest1013 Offline
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I would have your daughter play them, and also some good uprights at those dealers. If she is not wowed or drawn or thrilled or begging for a grand piano, I would just get a good upright and save the money for college or lessons, or the next venture.

I don't think you could make a mistake with either brand or grand. If you do get her a grand piano, then she might really become enchanted and highly motivated to play more. But at the moment, if she does not find a difference between, or experience for herself a strong reaction to a grand over a real upright, then I'd go for an upright.

Have her play, and try not to bias her one way or the other.

Last edited by guest1013; 01/26/10 11:29 PM.
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1359004
01/26/10 11:29 PM
01/26/10 11:29 PM
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Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Hello! I hope your daughter continues to play the piano! Its a great instrument for sure!

Yamaha is now becoming a world wide name, and is among some of the best made pianos today. Lots of concert halls have chosen yamaha as their piano recently.

I would say the Yamaha may be a better investment than the Kawai. Not that the Kawai is bad, But I think yamahas are built a bit higher up on the quality scale.

Oh yes... Baby grand Vs. Upright. I would say baby grand most of the time depending on the upright and pianos in consideration.

Also I would say keep an eye out for a used Yamaha G1 or G2. Great pianos and a bit larger than the average baby grand. Usually under $10,000


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1359539
01/27/10 04:55 PM
01/27/10 04:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 722
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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Quote
I would say the Yamaha may be a better investment than the Kawai. Not that the Kawai is bad, But I think yamahas are built a bit higher up on the quality scale.


Hi Brandon,
Would you please give us an objective explanation or specifications of why this is a fact and not your personal preference?


I also looked at the repertory you are working on and without trying to be offensive, I think you are a pianist in development.

Please. May I ask your credentials to support your statement. Are you a piano technician, dealer?

Best regards,

Last edited by Kurtmen; 01/27/10 04:59 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Kurtmen] #1359615
01/27/10 06:37 PM
01/27/10 06:37 PM
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Posts: 44
North Carolina
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danGIMP Offline
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen

I also looked at the repertory you are working on and without trying to be offensive, I think you are a pianist in development.

Please. May I ask your credentials to support your statement. Are you a piano technician, dealer?

I didn't realize that one had to be a piano technician or dealer to have an opinion.

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: danGIMP] #1359621
01/27/10 06:46 PM
01/27/10 06:46 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 266
Washington state via OH-IO
Less Rubato Offline
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I don;t get the Yamaha is better than Kawai statement either. I was under the impression that Kawai GRANDS were slightly preferred over Yamaha's when I read Fine's book. Regardless, I played both brands and I liked them both.
Strokeoluck--best wishes for you to find the perfect piano for YOU.

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: danGIMP] #1359630
01/27/10 06:58 PM
01/27/10 06:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 722
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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Quote
I didn't realize that one had to be a piano technician or dealer to have an opinion.




Dan,
An opinion and a statement are two different things. However I agree with you.
OTH I think that having professional expertise in the subject will contribute to an educated and more objective opinion.

Last edited by Kurtmen; 01/27/10 06:59 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Less Rubato] #1359633
01/27/10 06:59 PM
01/27/10 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Hi all!
I was stating the kawai/yamaha thing as an opinion and not a fact. Just from personal experiences. I feel the Yamaha grands have more volume for size and I like the tone a little better. And from a few different stores I have heard Yamaha is more of a durable instrument (i.e. can take a lot more abuse? so I hear)

Now for your question Kurtman, I am not a technician rather a hobbyist of 9 years experience.



______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1359641
01/27/10 07:05 PM
01/27/10 07:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 722
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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Kurtmen  Offline
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San Mateo, CA
Quote
I would say the Yamaha may be a better investment than the Kawai. Not that the Kawai is bad, But I think yamahas are built a bit higher up on the quality scale.


This is what I want to learn about.
Please tell us about the higher quality scale and not your personal choice in volume or tonal quality.

Quote
And from a few different stores I have heard Yamaha is more of a durable instrument (i.e. can take a lot more abuse? so I hear)


smile You didn't go to a Yamaha dealer by any chance right?

Last edited by Kurtmen; 01/27/10 07:10 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Kurtmen] #1359647
01/27/10 07:12 PM
01/27/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Brandon_W_T  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
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I mean in a level of piano maker grades. (price/quality) In my mind.
example

Cable nelson
Kimball
Conn
... skips a lot
Hyundai
skips more...
Kohler
Kawai
Yamaha
Steinway- Mason and Hamlin
bosendorfer

Obviously leaving out a LOT of makers. Half of them I cant think of the names of for some reason.




______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Kurtmen] #1359651
01/27/10 07:13 PM
01/27/10 07:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Omaha, Nebraska
Originally Posted by Kurtmen
Quote
I would say the Yamaha may be a better investment than the Kawai. Not that the Kawai is bad, But I think yamahas are built a bit higher up on the quality scale.


This is what I want to learn about.
Please tell us about the higher quality scale and not your personal choice in volume or tonal quality.

Quote
And from a few different stores I have heard Yamaha is more of a durable instrument (i.e. can take a lot more abuse? so I hear)


smile You didn't go to a Yamaha dealer by any chance right?


Hehe no... Well one was... but the others were M&H, Steinway, and one that seems to carry a bunch of piano brands.


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Kurtmen] #1359760
01/27/10 09:20 PM
01/27/10 09:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 44
North Carolina
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danGIMP Offline
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen

OTH I think that having professional expertise in the subject will contribute to an educated and more objective opinion.


Absolutely! I like the fact that there are so many professionals that offer their opinions on this board; I just didn't know if non-experts were expected to refrain from offering input.

I'd compare Yamaha GB1K and Kawai GM10K which should be in similar price range and determine the one whose sound and action appeals to your senses.

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: danGIMP] #1359766
01/27/10 09:26 PM
01/27/10 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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Omaha, Nebraska
Well -you- are really the one to make the most important decision... which one you end up buying!

Our suggestions dont mean everything considering we have not physically played each piano. Thats your job of course! And an important one! Spend your time at each and decide what is best for you! Yamaha GB1K and Kawai GM10K... that sounds like 2 good pianos to check out.

Good luck!


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1359840
01/27/10 11:27 PM
01/27/10 11:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,126
Texas
TX-Dennis Offline
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Texas
Though I am not especially fond of either, if those are the only choices I would probably choose the Yamaha GB1. Its tone is slightly less objectionable to my ears than is the GM10's. This, of course, is my personal opinion having played several of each instrument over the years. I think they are pretty much equal in terms of quality. You should go with whichever you like best. My opinion as to their relative tones really shouldn't affect your choice.


Dennis
[Linked Image]
flickr

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1360054
01/28/10 08:52 AM
01/28/10 08:52 AM
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strokeoluck Offline OP
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Thanks for your thoughts and opinions everyone. I greatly appreciate it.

I'd like a little help with a few more questions.

1) What are your thoughts on the price I should be paying for the Yamaha and/or Kawai 5' baby grand and perhaps the larger size (I believe 6', or approaching 6'). Both of the local retailers had a "sale price" on the 5' pianos at $8,995. Since I've never purchased a piano before I don't know if they budge on those prices or not. Without any other knowledge I would likely offer them something less than $8,995, but I really have no clue what the "true" value of a new 5' Yamaha or Kawai would be.

2) I visited another retailer in the Mpls area, this one is more of a low overhead place but run by an older gentleman who seems to know everything about pianos (his Dad started the store in 1933!). He has many used pianos for sale - all different brands including Steinway, Yamaha, etc. But the one he was recommending to me was a new model made by "Hallet, Davis & Co." They are made in China (with German strings and hammers) but the name on the front of the piano says the brand originated in Boston. He played the piano and it sounded terrific (yes, I will ensure my daughter visits all the stores and plays all the pianos). The 5' Hallet, Davis was selling for $5,495 and the 6' 1" Hallet, Davis was priced at $8,995. He said for an equivalent 6' Yamaha/Kawai piano I'd be looking at $20k+. He said no matter what brand we buy we're going to take a 20% hit on the price once we take it off the showroom floor (I agree). His main point to me was that if we didn't plan on producing a concert pianist, why take the 20% hit on the more expensive piano when we can buy one that sounds very good, for a lot less money.

Thoughts???

Thanks again!

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1360069
01/28/10 09:45 AM
01/28/10 09:45 AM
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Bob Offline
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The build quality of the Kawai and Yamaha will be better, hence the higher price. You get what you pay for.




Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: Bob] #1360146
01/28/10 12:16 PM
01/28/10 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,940
Omaha, Nebraska
Brandon_W_T Offline
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May I suggest this...
After playing the Baldwin M 5'2, I have been convinced that it is one of the best baby grands available. You can find a great 2nd hand one for probably under $10,000. I would suggest seeing if you can find a local one.

You get-
The very famous and well respected baldwin name
Sturdy and well built piano
Great volume in a small size
Good tone.

Worth a try!


______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1360159
01/28/10 12:28 PM
01/28/10 12:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 68
Texas
mark233 Offline
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Originally Posted by strokeoluck
A little background: my wife and I do not know how to play piano. Our 9 year old son took a few lessons and didn't care for it - he's big time into sports. Our 11 year old daughter has been taking lessons for a couple years now. She seems to enjoy taking lessons, but none of us (including her) envision her playing professionally or anywhere close to professionally. In fact at dinner tonight she initially said she'll probably play for the next "3-4 years", at which point she's guessing she'll be too busy with various high school activities and homework. Of course what 11 year old knows what the heck they'll be doing in 3-4 years?!



Strokeoluck- one thing to consider is that when you have the new piano (whatever you decide on) that sounds nice to your daughter that she may even have input to picking out, that she may remain in piano far longer than you might expect, and gain an even deeper appreciation and love of music and/or piano. Either of these pianos will blow away your $150 Target keyboard. Your son my even choose to go back to piano, who knows? It's been known to happen... grin

...just a thought. Good luck!
Mark


Estonia 190 / Yamaha U1 / Yamaha P-105

[Linked Image]

Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: mark233] #1360175
01/28/10 01:28 PM
01/28/10 01:28 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,198
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Per Strokeoluck - "But the one he was recommending to me was a new model made by "Hallet, Davis & Co." They are made in China (with German strings and hammers) but the name on the front of the piano says the brand originated in Boston."
__________________________________________________

The "name" may have originated in Boston - but the Chinese made Hallet Davis pianos you are looking at bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the American made Hallet, Davis & Co. pianos from years ago.

I would suggest that you take a little time to explore Larry Fine's Piano Buyer annual supplement (see ad on this website with link). It is free - and all online. You can get great information about each piano brand - quality ratings - prices, etc. Trust me - if you spend a couple of hours with this you will be able to make a more informed decision about your purchase !! Good luck.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Best baby grand <$10k? [Re: strokeoluck] #1361503
01/30/10 10:18 AM
01/30/10 10:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6
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strokeoluck Offline OP
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Thanks everyone. People keep telling me that we should be able to find some good brand name used options out there, but it's just not happening. When I search for Kawai or Yamaha (baby) grand's I come up with a total of four listings - none of which are appropriate to our need/size/budget. The closest I found recently was a 20 year old 5' 10" Kawai for $6800. (The gentleman says he has had a number of callers and will sell it soon). I know a piano can last a long, long time, but I think I'd prefer something a little newer (or brand new) than this one.

The local Yamaha dealer came down to $7,995 on the CN151, and down to $9,495 on the GB1K PE.

The Kawai dealer isn't budging on his $8,995 price on the 5' piano.

The Hallet, Davis dealer continues to tell me that his 6' baby grand is the best option and will produce the best sound. Initially I was concerned about the likelihood of even selling a 6' piano down the road due to buyer room size constraints, but the face the Kawai 5' 10" seller is receiving a number of calls is certainly positive.

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