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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
daviel #1361028 01/29/10 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by daviel


Maybe I don't understand the issue because the actions don't bother me. I have never had an issue with boards' action.


They don't bother me much either, unless they are noisy or uneven.

We must remember, it's the cook, not the stove. wink

Snazzy


Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361031 01/29/10 04:44 PM
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[quote=pianodilemma
So tell me about the S90XS comment above. What do you think? [/quote]

Sorry son, I'm no more qualified than you are.

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Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1361053 01/29/10 05:15 PM
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Well, I discovered that the CP1 is at my "local" music store - 30 min down the highway. They were supposed to call me when it came in, but didn't. It apparently arrived at the store and was setup TWO days ago (sigh).

I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Lawrence

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361062 01/29/10 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


I'm usually a unregistered lurker on this forum, but I have been following this thread with some interest, and just had to make a comment, or perhaps, a query.

What does your job as a "product manager a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment" have to do with the design, promotion and implementation of graded or non-graded key mechanisms in digital pianos and synthesizers?

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does that put you in a position to decide if a company has made dumb decisions?

Wouldn't it be far wiser to let the product come to market, and let, not only qualified musicians decide whether it's the "cat's meow", but also let it's sales success, or lack thereof, indicate just how "clever" or not so clever it is?

Colleen

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361107 01/29/10 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma


Again, I work as a product manager at a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment.


I'm usually a unregistered lurker on this forum, but I have been following this thread with some interest, and just had to make a comment, or perhaps, a query.

What does your job as a "product manager a successful sound technology company that does CODEC and audio post-processing implementations on embedded DSPs and SoCs for live sound equipment" have to do with the design, promotion and implementation of graded or non-graded key mechanisms in digital pianos and synthesizers?

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does that put you in a position to decide if a company has made dumb decisions?

Wouldn't it be far wiser to let the product come to market, and let, not only qualified musicians decide whether it's the "cat's meow", but also let it's sales success, or lack thereof, indicate just how "clever" or not so clever it is?

Colleen


This is a valid question, and I will give a valid answer.

First, you should re-read what I wrote above regarding market and product segmentation. To be clear, the product segmentation is primarily based on action and sound generation. This is how all instruments are ultimately evaluated for most people. There are other issues such as connectivity, user interface, and the like, but none is of as much significance as these two characteristics.

Second, and on that basis, the simple conclusions that one comes to are:

a. Yamaha does not currently offer a stage piano with a more modern graded action and a modern sound engine.
b. In making a flagship stage piano with non-graded action, they encroach on the feature set of the S90XS product line.
c. The concept of
d. It would not have been difficult to put a more modern or complete action.

Third, regarding why I mentioned my job qualifications and where I work, I will say that I have heard it time and again that a realistic piano simulation is extremely difficult to do but a necessary part of performing from the folks we support. We hear this all the time from performing artists, and they struggle to find a balance between cost and convenience. The folks who run the board are hard-pressed to do a proper mix and compensate for the deficiencies of the system (i.e. instrument, amps/speakers, mic (unless DI), etc.). The largest artists simply don't care, since they have enough money to haul around everything they want and have some pretty ridiculous riders (though some of the more famous folks in country music are REALLY nice). But there's a large segment of regional and local artists that have the same concerns and don't make as much money, frequently holding down multiple jobs to make a living. They want authenticity of feel and they want sound because both go hand-in-hand for live performance. My company deals with the sound aspect of this, but I've discussed this new stage piano with our support people and I ask them what they want. We reflect market reality in products, and there are a lot of instruments that are or have been controversial in one way or another. I truly don't believe, given what I've heard from our support guys, that this feature set in the new Yamaha CPs reflects market reality across the board. I'm sure they will get a lot of customers, don't get me wrong. I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.

One more thing that I will mention to you and everyone else: if you want to discuss the facts of my concerns, then address them. I still haven't heard a single word addressing them other than a lot of odd emotionally-based responses.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361115 01/29/10 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma
The lack of a graded action in the Yamaha is a total deal breaker for me with respect to the CP5 and CP1. What were Yamaha product managers and senior management thinking?



So what did you think of the feel of the CP1 action when you played it ?


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Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361136 01/29/10 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma


I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know they aren't planning to come out with a new "P" series piano, as has been mentioned?

It seems quite obvious to me, but not to you, that the CP is not intended for people looking for a "piano replacement"; that is already taken care of with products in the home segment such as the "P" pianos, and of course the CLP as well.

I believe, as has also been stated here, that there is no need of graded action on a piano that strives to cover both electric and acoustic; this concept of grading, in my view, is more of a marketing tool than anything else, and I also feel that Steve's opinion, that the other companies are forced to use what they have, instead of a developing a more appropriate action for a versatile stage piano, is dead on.

Let's face it; Korg's SV-1 action is third party Fatar (and frowningly horrible for it's intended purpose), and Roland has no actions in their stable whatsoever so fitting for this type of instrument.

I play primarily classical, and I for one, will not mind using an ungraded keyboard; just because an acoustic piano is forced to have these characteristics, does not mean we have to suffer through them on an electronic piano, especially one designed to embrace the more contemporary player.

I'm not interested in how Yamaha does it's product placement, but, so far, they have always managed to find and fit the right tool to the job.

What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.

If you need a "piano replacement" wait and buy one of the bound to be updated "P" series when they come out, and make your wishes and wants known about a future instrument; not one we haven't a hope in heck of changing.

Colleen

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361143 01/29/10 07:23 PM
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We are over-thinking this thing. IIRC a couple of the forumites are awaiting delivery, and another is going to report back on his impressions playing the C1 tonight. I personally do not give a rat's backside how Yamaha markets its products, but so far they're doing a good job of satisfying me. Thank God their accelerators don't stick.


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361146 01/29/10 07:26 PM
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I'm living in hope (veiled Rutles reference) that someone influential in Yamaha product development reads these forums, and uses our opinions as constructive feedback for future products.

I just hope he or she is the amiable sort who doesn't take being called a schizophrenic rabid chimp too much to heart.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1361153 01/29/10 07:38 PM
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Is the complaint that Yamaha CP1,CP5,and CP50 have graded action, or is the complaint that they don't have it?

All the stuff I read says all three have a "graded hammer action", for example,

<http://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_events/musical_instruments/2009/cp_pianos/>



"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
daviel #1361159 01/29/10 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by daviel
Is the complaint that Yamaha CP1,CP5,and CP50 have graded action, or is the complaint that they don't have it?

Those who care about graded hammer action are complaining about the reported absence of it in the CP1/5.

Originally Posted by daviel
All the stuff I read says all three have a "graded hammer action", for example,

<http://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_events/musical_instruments/2009/cp_pianos/>

If you look closely at that, they only mention "graded hammer action" in the CP50 section.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1361160 01/29/10 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
I'm living in hope (veiled Rutles reference) that someone influential in Yamaha product development reads these forums, and uses our opinions as constructive feedback for future products.

I just hope he or she is the amiable sort who doesn't take being called a schizophrenic rabid chimp too much to heart.


I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

If we were to read back on this forum, and perhaps on Keyboard Magazine's forum, we might be surprised at how many requests (in bits and pieces) there were for Yamaha to make the CP the way it is.

Now that it's here, every arm chair keyboard designer and digital piano expert are all over it; too late friends. It's done. It's here. Buy or don't buy.

I play in a band, and the CP-1 (or CP-5}looks very promising to me; hopefully I'll get to try one very soon.

I really believe the ungraded action idea will be copied by the others, because these CP pianos have set a new standard, in my opinion.

Colleen


Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361165 01/29/10 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

You're teasing us Colleen. Can't you dish in a way that won't get anyone in trouble?

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361168 01/29/10 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500


What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.

Colleen


Well said, Colleen.

What amuses me even more, is that most of these "armchair keyboard designers"(your words, not mine) have not even seen or played the CP series pianos...yet they complain, without even so much as trying the instruments.

A tad presumptuous, if not actually closed minded, I think. wink

Snazzy


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
snazzyplayer #1361181 01/29/10 08:20 PM
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+1 Snazz! The Lazy-boy-Horowitz-radio-shack faction is assuming the "nw-stage weighted keys" means no graded hammer or whatever the heck, without as much as having driven past a GC with a CP1 inside on the floor, much less having actually played one! I will bet lunch on me that a blindfold test with 95% of them could not tell the difference playing one. Preemptive complaining!!


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
dewster #1361194 01/29/10 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Colleen_500
I know for certain these forums are read by Yamaha reps.

Don't ask me how I know, but I know.

You're teasing us Colleen. Can't you dish in a way that won't get anyone in trouble?


I'm sorry, but I can't say much more or name names.

But, you have my word that this forum is regularly read by Yamaha reps.

I'm pretty sure that Roland and Kawai have this place checked out as well; there must be one or the other represented here by someone?

Are you considering the CP-50? Does graded hammer action play that much of a role in your playing? Perhaps you prefer acoustic piano sounds over the electric, and want more realism?

I like the idea of ungraded; I've played Rhodes piano in church, and loved the even feel, but I wasn't entirely happy with the action; it probably could have been set up better(regulation on a Rhodes?).

It may be woman's intuition, but I have a feeling these pianos will be embraced by many well known top drawer players, which will guarantee their acceptance by regular Joes and Janes. I've heard it said that we often "hear with our eyes" and many players like to mimic their heroes and heroines; not that the CP's won't be worthy. It's just human nature to copy.

Colleen



Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361199 01/29/10 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Originally Posted by pianodilemma
I simply believe they will alienate a certain significant portion of their customer base who is looking for a stage piano, i.e. a piano replacement. Not a weighted keyboard, not a keyboard with piano sounds, but a stage piano.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but how do you know they aren't planning to come out with a new "P" series piano, as has been mentioned?


I think there's an issue of semantics on whether CP's vs. P's are stage pianos. The fact is that the CP300 is the predecessor in that stage piano product line from Yamaha's own website and has a superior action with regards to grading than the new pianos. Maybe this is a brand/product category issue. Maybe it means that I go for the CP50 (although nobody has answered my three pedal question).

Quote
It seems quite obvious to me, but not to you, that the CP is not intended for people looking for a "piano replacement"; that is already taken care of with products in the home segment such as the "P" pianos, and of course the CLP as well.


I think it's quite clear to me what the new CPs are and aren't replacing based solely on the basic features I've already said. Remember what happened with Coke and New Coke? It caused a lot of confusion and backlash because of people's expectations. That's Yamaha's job to manage the product line impressions for customers in an easy way, not for me to sit and sift through detailed technical specifications to try to find what I like when the predecessor product had a clear feature set and purpose.

Quote
I believe, as has also been stated here, that there is no need of graded action on a piano that strives to cover both electric and acoustic; this concept of grading, in my view, is more of a marketing tool than anything else, and I also feel that Steve's opinion, that the other companies are forced to use what they have, instead of a developing a more appropriate action for a versatile stage piano, is dead on.


Dead on for you and others, not dead on for me and others. If you sincerely believe that graded actions are a marketing tool, then I believe that you are mistaken. I've played the S90ES and XS, and still prefer the CP300. I can feel more weight in the bass keys as is on a real piano, and there hasn't been a single non-graded action I think feels anywhere near an acoustic piano. That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it. And as far as actions goes, there are actions for all types of music. The action of the DX7 we had in middle school was very different than my U3, and took a lot of time to get used to. At that time, merely having velocity-sensitive keys was appreciated, but they were all equal and it took a while to use. Even more importantly, the piano action is noticeably heavier, and this can affect one's ability to play an acoustic. I certainly wouldn't have had the chops on piano that I do if I learned on a non-weighted action.

Quote
Let's face it; Korg's SV-1 action is third party Fatar (and frowningly horrible for it's intended purpose), and Roland has no actions in their stable whatsoever so fitting for this type of instrument.


I agree that Korg's action isn't that great compared to the Yamaha, Kawai or Roland actions (and I have other issues with the SV-1 after playing it such as relative non-tweakability of the EPs). It is still graded, however. It's a feature. But again, this is a stage piano, i.e. a replacement for it.

I think I see now part of the confusion between your position and mine - that Yamaha hasn't clearly delineated that the new CPs are more for electric piano simulations than real pianos. And that's fine. I just don't think they're being as up front about it as they need to be, and this is the point of discussing this in a thread. And IF that is the case, then the action is definitely more appropriate to be non-graded as it was in the older EPs. But to say this is a replacement for the CP300 is untrue, and I think a lot of Yamaha fans like myself have been waiting to get the higher-end piano actions (GH3 and NW-piano) in a portable instrument.

Quote
I play primarily classical, and I for one, will not mind using an ungraded keyboard; just because an acoustic piano is forced to have these characteristics, does not mean we have to suffer through them on an electronic piano, especially one designed to embrace the more contemporary player.


Let me state again: real acoustic instruments will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. That being the case, we need to be able to sit down at one and play one when that's all that's around. I can guarantee that long-term playing on a non-graded action will result in a more difficult transition back to a real acoustic instrument. That is why I don't want this in the instrument I buy.

Quote
I'm not interested in how Yamaha does it's product placement, but, so far, they have always managed to find and fit the right tool to the job.


I think you mean product segmentation, but I actually am interested because I see a gap.

Quote
What we are discussing here, is complaints after the fact; the instruments are made and being sold. No amount of grinding your teeth, and wishing this and that, and criticizing their methods and motives is going to change anything.


Why do you assume I'm grinding my teeth over this issue? Frankly, I'm trying to have a level-headed discussion with a very minimum of emotion and I keep seeing a bunch of these emotionally-driven comments which is simply bizarre to me. I fully recognize that "that's that" when it comes to Yamaha's line for now. But I'm a consumer, and if my needs are not met (which appears that they may not be), then I vote with my feet and see what else is out there.

Quote
If you need a "piano replacement" wait and buy one of the bound to be updated "P" series when they come out, and make your wishes and wants known about a future instrument; not one we haven't a hope in heck of changing.

Colleen


I guarantee that I will buy what meets my needs. I would've preferred it be Yamaha, but I'm loyal to myself before I'm loyal to a political party or brand or whatever other identifiable group there is.


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Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
Colleen_500 #1361202 01/29/10 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Are you considering the CP-50?

On the off-chance the CFIII patch is good enough. If it is I'll get one in a second.

Originally Posted by Colleen_500
Does graded hammer action play that much of a role in your playing? Perhaps you prefer acoustic piano sounds over the electric, and want more realism?

Like you, ungraded keys are a plus, but it doesn't really make that much difference to me, Yamaha keys are always fine.

It's all about the AP patch.

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361216 01/29/10 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma



That you claim to play piano and can't realize this is puzzling, but I won't make an issue of it.


There is really not much of an issue you can make.

I adapt very quickly to different keyboard actions; some people do not.

I still think you are making a big fuss over something that's all done. Do you expect to change it, now that it is in production?

But, persist if you must; I think your energy and persistence would be better directed at the home piano division. The "P" will be made over, so why not start a thread on what you (or we) would like to see on the next model? It's rather late discussing the CP series, but a new "P" series won't be here for about two years, unless they are planning to produce a model above the P-155.

So, get your druthers in now, while it's possible to steer the good ship Yamaha (more like a tanker) slowly towards a super portable home piano.

I think it's silly, and much too late, to criticize the CP pianos; the horse is gone, and it's too late to close the barn door. We will soon enough know if Yamaha was wise or not to make these instruments ungraded. Remember, they have researched this market ahead of production; you are trying to find a reason behind it after the fact; you won't find it, unless you know somebody deep within Yamaha's design department.

The Avant Grand was a breakthrough in digital design. I played one, and it's the best electronic piano made anywhere, if one wants to be swept up in the experience of an acoustic piano without the fuss and muss. These past years Yamaha have been changing, and are focusing more on the player's experience when playing, and I feel these CP pianos are the by-product of this alteration in thinking.


Colleen

Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha!
pianodilemma #1361225 01/29/10 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pianodilemma

b. In making a flagship stage piano with non-graded action, they encroach on the feature set of the S90XS product line.


Perhaps the S90 is not going to be continued. This could be part of a reorganization of the various product lines. We don't really know.

We don't have access to their market research. It could be they found enough keyboard player who complained about "those darn grand piano-like" key actions on their electric pianos.

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