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#1358301 - 01/26/10 04:16 AM Elise was not an unshaved girl!  
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LaRate Offline
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While surfing this (or any other piano) forum or by looking into most (english) beginners songbooks one will almost always find Beethovens well-known piece.

As a german native speaker (and also bit of a pedant I suppose ;-)) I always flinch when I read "Fur Elise" as an english transliteration for "Für Elise" (meaning for Elise). My head almost immediately translates the phrase and I end up with a hard-to-shake image in my head picturing a girl with pelt or something.

So I'd like to utter a little plea to either use the "Umlaut" Ü, or (since english keyboards do not have it) use the correct transliteration for ü: ue. So it would be "Fuer Elise" rather than the furry girl ;-).

Sorry, but I had to let that out.

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#1358305 - 01/26/10 04:31 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: LaRate]  
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I always find an umlaut and paste and copy viz Ü. I'm not sure I'd bother for that piece though.


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#1358309 - 01/26/10 04:47 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Americans usually try to pronounce the umlaut even if it's not there, at least with this piece's title. It usually is pronounced 'fyur' even though it's written 'fur'. But I think you're right that it would be better if it were more often written 'fuer'.


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#1358329 - 01/26/10 05:27 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
I always find an umlaut and paste and copy viz Ü. I'm not sure I'd bother for that piece though.
With a Mac an umlaut is option-u, then type the letter you want the umlaut on (u,a,o) ü ä ö smile


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#1358333 - 01/26/10 05:51 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: LaRate]  
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Only reason I ever write it out as Fur is because my keyboard doesn't have the symbol. I think you are too obsessed with the little details :P

On another note, I played the main theme with pedal today and it was most satisfying for me... I only have to work harder on not moving my body with the music when practicing but I was so into it...

And no offense but chances are she was an unshaved girl considering the time she live in if she is a person, no one knows the real name of this piece.

Last edited by Teodor; 01/26/10 06:05 AM.

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#1358340 - 01/26/10 06:13 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Teodor]  
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if you hit alt+numbers you get all the different symboles you need:

é: 131
ù: 151
ö: 148
etc, etc... (the above with the alt pressed down and then releasing).

FùÖ¥Ær Elise! laugh

#1358346 - 01/26/10 06:33 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: LaRate]  
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Originally Posted by LaRate
While surfing this (or any other piano) forum or by looking into most (english) beginners songbooks one will almost always find Beethovens well-known piece.

As a german native speaker (and also bit of a pedant I suppose ;-)) I always flinch when I read "Fur Elise" as an english transliteration for "Für Elise" (meaning for Elise). My head almost immediately translates the phrase and I end up with a hard-to-shake image in my head picturing a girl with pelt or something.

So I'd like to utter a little plea to either use the "Umlaut" Ü, or (since english keyboards do not have it) use the correct transliteration for ü: ue. So it would be "Fuer Elise" rather than the furry girl ;-).

Sorry, but I had to let that out.


LOL, your subject heading really caught my attention. I was expecting some historical evidence that "Elise" was in fact shaven (where she's supposed to be shaven)...LOL.

Anyway, in my mind, I always pronounce it "fuer" also. My YouTube video title of this piece also has the correct: Für Elise title. smile


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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


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#1358348 - 01/26/10 06:38 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Teodor]  
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Originally Posted by Teodor
Only reason I ever write it out as Fur is because my keyboard doesn't have the symbol. I think you are too obsessed with the little details :P

On another note, I played the main theme with pedal today and it was most satisfying for me... I only have to work harder on not moving my body with the music when practicing but I was so into it...

And no offense but chances are she was an unshaved girl considering the time she live in if she is a person, no one knows the real name of this piece.


LOL Teodor, true! I doubt women shaved during that era.

Teodor, I can't help but move my body when I play this. Otherwise it sounds too mechanical and w/out emotion. Actually, my version was critiqued here on ABF, that it lacked phrasing and dynamics...I'd like to do it over yet again and correct this....perhaps for a future piano bar.

Anyway, good luck with this piece. I consider this a pianist's "rite of passage." hahahah.


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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


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#1358368 - 01/26/10 07:41 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: LaRate]  
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The umlaut for "u" can be done in windows as follows:
hold down alt key, and type 0252 - on the numeric keypad.

Für Elise.

[sarcasm]Windows makes it so easy. There is a different set of numbers for each umlaut letter - lower case has a different set than upper case.[/sarcasm]

If I were writing a dissertation of Hans von Bülow's conducting of Götterdämmerung in München, I'd buy a Mac before they took me away in a canvas camisole.

For Piano World? Sorry, but Fur Elise is what you're getting.

#1358378 - 01/26/10 08:15 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
I always find an umlaut and paste and copy viz Ü. I'm not sure I'd bother for that piece though.


Ah yes - how refreshing that the snobbish elite are always so dependable in their offended reactions and can always be counted on to take advantage of every opportunity to sniff indignantly, scoff sarcastically and generally look down their long, upturned noses at the mere mention of this "trite, overplayed and overrated populist piece of hackneyed music". smile

The discussion above has been amusing, but essentially devoted to the more trivial aspect of the problem.

The real question here is in the pronunciation of "Elise".

Is it A-liss or E-liss or A-lese or E-lese or Al-iss or El-iss or Al-ese or El-ese or ... or just any way any woman named Elise chooses to pronounce it ...

JF

Last edited by John Frank; 01/26/10 08:16 AM.

Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

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#1358384 - 01/26/10 08:33 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: TrapperJohn]  
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Originally Posted by John Frank

The real question here is in the pronunciation of "Elise".

Is it A-liss or E-liss or A-lese or E-lese or Al-iss or El-iss or Al-ese or El-ese or ... or just any way any woman named Elise chooses to pronounce it ...


Take your pick - rumour has it the woman was called Therese anyway laugh.

Last edited by LaRate; 01/26/10 08:33 AM.
#1358390 - 01/26/10 08:52 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: LaRate]  
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When listening to French CBC, I am sure that I have heard it pronounced, Pour Elise, the final E silent a la francais. wink


#1358449 - 01/26/10 10:43 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: keystring]  
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You might be interested in knowing that that piece was not written "For Elise." There was no such person in Beethoven's life. Because his writting was so sloppy and difficult to read, the publishers just took a guess at what the title was. They very well just made it up for something to call it.

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#1358460 - 01/26/10 11:01 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Maybe he wrote Für Schuljunge. Just to wind music teachers up.


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#1358472 - 01/26/10 11:16 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
You might be interested in knowing that that piece was not written "For Elise." There was no such person in Beethoven's life.


Can we be absolutely sure of this - after all, musicologists attributed the famous Minuet in G to J.S. Bach for centuries before they finally got it right (it was actually composed by Christian Petzold, aka, P.D.Q. Bach). Maybe Ludwig was the "Tiger" of his day, with hidden "honeys" virtually everywhere laugh


Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
Because his writting was so sloppy and difficult to read, the publishers just took a guess at what the title was. They very well just made it up for something to call it.

Kathleen


Well, then what's all the freakin' fuss about that umlaut about?

JF


Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.
#1358486 - 01/26/10 11:34 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: TrapperJohn]  
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Originally Posted by John Frank

Can we be absolutely sure of this - after all, musicologists attributed the famous Minuet in G to J.S. Bach for centuries before they finally got it right (it was actually composed by Christian Petzold, aka, P.D.Q. Bach). Maybe Ludwig was the "Tiger" of his day, with hidden "honeys" virtually everywhere laugh

Well, then what's all the freakin' fuss about that umlaut about?

JF


Well, whatever it is - I don't think it likely that old Ludwig meant it to refer to some lady's extensive body hair.

...or did he? laugh

#1358490 - 01/26/10 11:37 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
You might be interested in knowing that that piece was not written "For Elise." There was no such person in Beethoven's life. Because his writting was so sloppy and difficult to read, the publishers just took a guess at what the title was. They very well just made it up for something to call it.

Kathleen


While Beethoven's penmanship, did, leave much to be desired, there's no evidence supporting this theory at all. It's long been thought that Therese Malfatti (to whom Beethoven proposed), was the intended dedicatee, but no one really knows for certain, and the manuscript itself has long been lost (all that now exists is a sketch fragment). There is a theory that Elise, was, Elisabeth Roeckel (soprano and wife of Hummel). At the christening of Roeckel's first child, her name is given as, "Maria Eva Elise". It's known that she and Beethoven had a close relationship at least at one time. The Beethoven-Haus, apparently, will be publishing an article this year expounding on the theory. While it will probably never be known for certain, who, exactly Elise, was, one thing is for sure...Beethoven, would be an incredibly wealthy man, if he were alive today and drawing royalties off his bagatelle.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1358504 - 01/26/10 11:52 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: TrapperJohn]  
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Originally Posted by John Frank

The real question here is in the pronunciation of "Elise".




The German pronunciation would be close to the French one, but with final 'e' non-silent.

If that doesn't help you, a possible transliteration would be "Ay-lee-zah" or maybe "Ay-lee-zuh", second syllable stressed.


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#1358505 - 01/26/10 11:52 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: stores]  
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Elise just might have been furry - how do you know she wasn't Beethoven's dog? wink


Music is the voice of the heart.
#1358523 - 01/26/10 12:21 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: DancinDigits]  
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LOL!!!!!!!!


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(Started playing July 2008)

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#1358910 - 01/26/10 09:06 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: TrapperJohn]  
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Originally Posted by John Frank

Ah yes - how refreshing that the snobbish elite are always so dependable in their offended reactions and can always be counted on to take advantage of every opportunity to sniff indignantly, scoff sarcastically and generally look down their long, upturned noses at the mere mention of this "trite, overplayed and overrated populist piece of hackneyed music". smile


JF


JF, I really appreciate how you defend this masterpiece time-and-time again. I don't think it's never been criticized on the ABF, but I've seen it criticized in other places as exactly what you state: "trite, overplayed and overrated populist piece of hackneyed music". Anyway, it's a big deal for some of us adult beginners to learn and it's a great "intermediate study" of how to really play classical music.


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#1359231 - 01/27/10 09:04 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: CebuKid]  
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stores:

You seem to really know your "stuff." My response to the Elise question was based on what Herhsey Felder (who spent several years researching Beethoven's life, and who is currently appearing in a one-man musical play called: "Beethoven, As I Knew Him" - across the country to rave reviews.) He has also "done" Chopin and Gershwin to the very same reviews.

After Felder's performance in the Beethoven play, someone in the audience asked him who Elise was. And his answer was basically what I wrote. I know just a little about Beethoven's life athough I am a big fan of his music. But I had to reply on Mr. Felder's knowledge, considering all the reasearch he had done.

If you don't mind, I would like to post this topic in the Chopin thread because perhaps Dr. Kallberg can shed some light some the subject even if he is known as THE expert on Chopin.

Kathleen

Last edited by loveschopintoomuch; 01/27/10 09:06 AM.

After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#1359244 - 01/27/10 09:38 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
if you hit alt+numbers you get all the different symboles you need:

é: 131
ù: 151
ö: 148
etc, etc... (the above with the alt pressed down and then releasing).

FùÖ¥Ær Elise! laugh

There's no number pad on my laptop, I use Character Map.
-

#1359277 - 01/27/10 10:46 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: crusadar]  
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Is this Elise?

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#1359287 - 01/27/10 11:16 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: stores]  
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
You might be interested in knowing that that piece was not written "For Elise." There was no such person in Beethoven's life. Because his writting was so sloppy and difficult to read, the publishers just took a guess at what the title was. They very well just made it up for something to call it.

Kathleen


While Beethoven's penmanship, did, leave much to be desired, there's no evidence supporting this theory at all. It's long been thought that Therese Malfatti (to whom Beethoven proposed), was the intended dedicatee, but no one really knows for certain, and the manuscript itself has long been lost (all that now exists is a sketch fragment). There is a theory that Elise, was, Elisabeth Roeckel (soprano and wife of Hummel). At the christening of Roeckel's first child, her name is given as, "Maria Eva Elise". It's known that she and Beethoven had a close relationship at least at one time. The Beethoven-Haus, apparently, will be publishing an article this year expounding on the theory. While it will probably never be known for certain, who, exactly Elise, was, one thing is for sure...Beethoven, would be an incredibly wealthy man, if he were alive today and drawing royalties off his bagatelle.


Here's the only thing Grove Music Online has to say on this (from the works list):

WoO59 Bagatelle 'Für Elise' 1808/1810 Lost autograph possibly inscribed 'Für Therese' i.e. Therese Malfatti.


Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718
#1359288 - 01/27/10 11:20 AM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: packa]  
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it's a gorgeous piece.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#1359452 - 01/27/10 02:56 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Crippy]  
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Originally Posted by Crippy
Is this Elise?


Yes, that's her.


http://www.ecital.net
Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

Don't click here!
#1359560 - 01/27/10 05:23 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: gerg]  
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Not only WAS there an Elise, student of Beethoven, but there were TWO ELise's who were his students. They were cousins - and because their parents were both twins, they were 'identical cousins' and Beethoven had the darndest time telling them apart. At first he had them wear color-coded dirndles, but they got a kick out of mixing them up - and mixing Beethoven up but the Maestro could usually tell them apart once they started playing.

Now it was an especially cold and snowy winter in Vienna that year (which year?) and the girls had to bundle up to keep their hands warm on their way over to Beethoven's place. If their fingers froze and became stiff they knew they were in for it from Ludwig who would scold them mercilessly on their slovenly playing. One of the Elise cousins took to wearing a fur muff on her hands, and the other would carry steins of hot chocolate to her lesson - both to try and keep their hands warm. The short piece which Beethoven wrote for the 'fur' Elise - by which he could tell from the difficult runs in the middle who she was - has survived. THe other short piece "Schokolade Elisa' has sadly perished in the mists of time.


"There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action." -- Goethe
#1359574 - 01/27/10 05:38 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Schubertian]  
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Quite the interesting history lesson Schubertian! wink

#1359593 - 01/27/10 06:06 PM Re: Elise was not an unshaved girl! [Re: Schubertian]  
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Originally Posted by Schubertian
Not only WAS there an Elise, student of Beethoven, but there were TWO ELise's who were his students. They were cousins - and because their parents were both twins, they were 'identical cousins' and Beethoven had the darndest time telling them apart. At first he had them wear color-coded dirndles, but they got a kick out of mixing them up - and mixing Beethoven up but the Maestro could usually tell them apart once they started playing.

Now it was an especially cold and snowy winter in Vienna that year (which year?) and the girls had to bundle up to keep their hands warm on their way over to Beethoven's place. If their fingers froze and became stiff they knew they were in for it from Ludwig who would scold them mercilessly on their slovenly playing. One of the Elise cousins took to wearing a fur muff on her hands, and the other would carry steins of hot chocolate to her lesson - both to try and keep their hands warm. The short piece which Beethoven wrote for the 'fur' Elise - by which he could tell from the difficult runs in the middle who she was - has survived. THe other short piece "Schokolade Elisa' has sadly perished in the mists of time.


That's all correct. Furthermore, given the high mortality rates of that age, the families were stricken with a deep concern lest one of the Elises should tragically succumb to one of the many ailments that rampaged throughout the populace. By agreeing to name both girls "Elise", the two families found a hedge of insurance against the unthinkable prospect of being bereaved of an only Elise.


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