Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Composer's Lounge Some questions related to composing

Hello and thanks in advance to anyone who replys.

1. What is a b.a in music really for? What can only be taught there in matters of composing?
2. How do composers learn to compose for a full orchestra?

1. Depends on the school and how degree programs are designed. In practice, a BA could be an academic music degree (as opposed to a BM - performance degree), or it could simply be a generalized arts degree with an individualized emphasis.

2. Typically by learning several of the instruments, taking courses in instrumentation and orchestration, writing for and working with student ensembles, and lots of listening and score study.

Regarding the orchestra - Can a piano only player can compose for an orchestra?

If you're a pianist, having a DAW (digital workstation) with orchestra samples will give you the opportunity to orchestrate and hear your results. A lot of experimenting will help you discover what works and what doesn't work.

Power Mac, Logic Pro, and The East West Quantum Leap orchestra samples would be a great education in the direction of composing for orchestra.

There are several other DAW plateforms that work equally well. Some much cheaper with less quality sound - but just as good a learning experience.

Best, John

I would very heavily advise against this. Computers and sample libraries allow you to do everything, real instruments don't. Imagine a bass flute solo accompanied by low brass and percussion. On a computer you can make it work, tweak the dynamic balance until it sounds as you wish. If you try it with real instruments, you'll find the brass totally swallowing the bass flute and no matter what you do, it won't be heard as clearly as a solo would require, if it's heard at all.

Sample libraries are good for what they do, that is, create virtual performances of music. But they are no learning tool. Nothing replaces listening to recordings, studying scores, doing orchestration exercises and trying them out with real instruments.

That's why I mentioned the East West Quantum Leap orchestra samples. The range of all the instruments are highlighted on the keyboard of the "player" mechanism. The EWQL won't allow you to perform notes not in the instrument's range. Great learning tool.

"Computers and sample libraries allow you to do everything, real instruments don't" - renaud This aspect could create some interesting results. Besides the term "real" is losing momentum in the modern world of music. I'd bet if Beethoven were alive today he would have a DAW - and he'd push it to the limit!

John

Do you really need a university degree for example to make all that?

No, there are more ways to acquire knowledge than in universities. Beethoven's formal education ended on the elementary level. However, he had many private teachers for his music education (including his father).

Finding a good private teacher would be another option for gaining the knowledge needed.

I'm sorry, but I must agree with mrenaud. Experimenting with a digital orchestra can only help you discover what works and what doesn't work for a digital orchestra. This has nothing to do with what works and what doesn't work for a real orchestra. I've seen too many people who have worked professionally with digital orchestras for years, and when they finally have been given a chance to write for a real orchestra the result has been rather catastrophic.

To learn orchestration, start by reading some books on the subject (Adler, Piston, Kennan, Rimsky-Korsakov...), then study a LOT of scores closely. A good online course can be found here:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77
(At least I've heard it's good, haven't studied it myself.)

But in the end, if you really want to learn orchestration, you need to hear your orchestrations performed by a real orchestra. This is the only occassion when you can get real feedback on what you have written and how well you have performed as an orchestrator.

"But in the end, if you really want to learn orchestration, you need to hear your orchestrations performed by a real orchestra" - Roger

And how many people will have this learning experience opportunity? DAW's will give you a chance to hear your orchestrated results. Many of today's top composers and orchestrators use DAW's to prepare mock-ups.

Best, John

How many become expert orchestrators?

I'm afraid there's nothing I can say to make you change your mind. Only if you one day use EWQLSO to create an orchestral piece and then hear the same piece performed by a real orchestra you will understand the difference I'm talking about.

Of course there's a difference Roger. But don't write off DAW‘s as a learning and composing tool so quickly. Besides, we're probably talking apples and oranges. I'm more into film soundtrack type orchestrations where often the "live" orchestra and DAW's merge.

If you're talking strict classical/ concert music, I'm sure your point is valid. However, if the tide was turned: how do you think your orchestrations would sound playing all the parts into a DAW (using great samples) as opposed to the intended “live” orchestra?

Two quick points:

DAWs work fine for mock-ups and can be very useful. True, they are a poor substitute for live instruments, but there's a middle ground. You can learn the instruments by writing for chamber ensembles (which are easier to come by) and use DAWs to explore larger ensembles (which aren't readily available.)

Also, the function of a university goes far beyond education. A university is where you can be introduced to people and make connections that will help you out in professional situations.

Connections are a huge part of making it as a composer. Getting to know conductors and musicians who will take an interest in your work is very important, and schools are where a lot of those initial meetings take place.

Kresiler has a point there. What is the chance for a person to hear what he wrote performed by a full orchestra only after lessons with a private teacher? What is the chance of being taken into consideration without a degree?

Orchestras are really a very small part of the composer's palette, and the composer is making a quite specific cultural choice when they opt to write for this medium.

One can do an awful lot as a composer without ever writing orchestral music. It's a really 19th century world view that perceives orchestras as being the repositories of musical value.

Having said that, the best way to learn about how an orchestra works is to play in one, to go to orchestral concerts as frequently as you can (and sit as close as you can to the orchestra, preferably at the side, or behind, even though this is not the best position for balance), study orchestral scores, watch televised performances of orchestral works (often there are interesting close-ups that help isolate the instrumental colours that are employed to create an effect), and of course, undertake study with someone who knows what they are doing.

The value of contacts cannot be overstated. So even if you end up not taking college-based composition study, start honing your networking skills. Who you know accounts for much more than what you know. Sad. True.

It depends what you’re looking for in a career ABC.

Are you thinking in terms of the concert stage or as a film score composing? Learning the new technologies (such as DAW's) is essential if you're aiming for the latter. Maybe the university route fits the former ambition better.

As far as the music produced by a “live” orchestra verses the music produced through the DAW mechanism, they’re both valid in today’s music world. I’ve heard DAW orchestra arrangements that knocked my socks off. I’ve heard live orchestra arrangements that bored me to death. And vice versa.

Education comes in many ways and in many places. Embrace it where ever you meet it.

Best, John

you are, pretty much, asking us how to promote yourself fully: Your next question might be how to get paid for that performance...

It's got to do with everything: Your skills (regardless of degrees or official credentials), your academic credentials (a tiny bit), your music, your 'talent' (whatever this means), your personality, your marketing skills and maybe even your relationship with a director or two!

Going to college is almost (<-!!!) never a bad idea. You will get to learn. Samples are not a substitute for learning, but they work great (and personally I work with samples quite a lot, because I do computer game composing as a main part of making a living). Other than that learning music, composition, orchestration takes A LOT OF TIME and a lot of maturity. It's not far off, I guess, the 10k hours mentioned elsewhere in this forum regarding performance.

There's a certain amount of "degree inflation" today, especially in the US. There are a lot of people running around with advanced degrees in music (which, quite frankly, are rather easy to get.)

As a result, there are a variety of specialty programs being invented. If you want to do film music, it's probably best to go to a school that specializes in that. If you want to work with orchestras, you need to go to a school with a fantastic orchestra that has a conductor and composition teacher that get along well and work together.

For composition, it's important to look at what a school offers, not just in the composition department, but across the board. You may find a fantastic composition teacher at Small Midwestern State College, but if that college only has 2 violin majors and no full time horn teacher, who's going to perform your music?

Just in order to complete this discussion - it is true that you do not really need a uni' degree or any other title in order to be accepted into the worldwide "composers lounge" and to be recognized in anyway?
Thanks everyone for the former replys.

I have no idea what you mean by "accepted into the worldwide composers lounge."

All you really need to is to write stuff and have it performed. School is probably the easiest place to have that happen, but it isn't the only way.

Here in Iowa, there's the Iowa Composers' Forum:

http://www.iowacomposers.org/

Anyone can join, and they provide resources to help people find performers and venues. I played at their conference last October and it was a great experience!

There's also a national forum with a similar mission:

http://www.composersforum.org/

I'm not sure what's available outside the US, but I'm sure there are probably similar organizations.